I was 4th to Jalabert’s 3rd at 70.3 Worlds 2011 in M40-44. He doesn’t exactly have a clean reputation either.

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Given their history…not something to shout about.

I don’t understand why an ex world tour pro would want to move to amateur triathlon racing against a bunch of middle aged men most of whom would have been working in an office 40+ hours a week whilst they were training day in day out. Sad.

I won’t knock a guy (or woman) who loves competing for competing in events that are available to them - nothing wrong with that at all, it’s great. That said, both of these dudes have known or highly suspected doping pasts - I have a problem with that.

Both gentlemen performed quite well at the 2019 70.3 WC at Nice and both of them received quite loud booing when picking their awards. Audience was quite aware of their reputation

I have no problem with them racing. And winning.

Good to hear, thank you

They’ve become older and probably triathlon helps them as a habit to stay fit & healthy. Let them be tested and that’s it. Follow the process. Similarly you might have young guys who’re just trying if they’re good enough to be pro for YEARS, probably “working” a few hours a week.

Only really one answer as to why..."ego" and they can't race the top pros at this age and win. Maybe I should have put my post all in pink? The question now is, can you consider these "legit" wins or not? They wouldn't be where they are today without the past--something the others haven't participated in...those benefits never go away. Certainly a good debate to which I have no clear answer.

Good topic, and I thought of this looking at the AG results. I think this issue was discussed years ago here when Lance wanted to compete in mountain bike races and triathlons after his "retirement" from cycling, but could not because of his lifetime ban from any sport. I think a fair solution to previous dopers is to allow them to compete in whatever races they want, but no placing, awards, qualification for Worlds spots. They can compete to compete with themselves. It has been proven that any advantage gained from previous years of doping carries future benefits. I think in these 3 cases both extremes were wrong. Lance should be allowed to compete in whatever races he wants, and Jalabert and Vinokourov should not be racing in a World Championship. Just my opinion, but I think this creates fairness to all.

I mostly agree with this take. If they don't have some kind of lifetime ban (which is weird anyway) I don't see a problem. I would think given their factual indictable histories, we would prevent them from being in positions where they take spots away from other "clean" athletes in their AGs (clean is debatable though). People need some kind of punishment, but if it is served and there is nothing prohibiting entering a race then ce la vie.

Then again, we are talking about some of the most competitive people on the planet. I am not surprised in the least they still don't give AF and need to take these podiums to fill up their ego. Part and parcel with the type of people we are discussing.

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X2. If I had a full time job and came second to either of these two ex dopers I would be well pissed off. Coming second to a clean ex pro would be quite the brag I would have thought.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

Isn't that true for any ex-doper?
Or would you be fine with a full time AG ex doper (or suspected doper)? But not an ex pro suspected doper?

Messick has never found a doper or despot he didn't love. A perfect sendoff.

Good.

Technically there's nothing to prevent them from competing so they have every right to be there, but we can express our feelings about it.

My question is why you are worried about them only and not the 100's of other doped age groupers who are also at the start line at Nice or 70.3 Worlds, or ITU worlds.

At the end of the day, all of the field is slow relative to Sam Laidlaw (even Jan Frodeno was). Age group competition is just concocted competition to keep more of us engaged. If age group competition is interesting to us desk jockeys (or whatever we do in our day to day lives), why can't it be interesting for ex pro athletes?

I'll call you out on it, and its that you resent their past, and don't want them there, because they are stealing positions from those of us who don't have their UCI pro young working life experience (inclusive of everything they got injected with).

Our working life experience is different, but does not mean they can't play in the age grouper world, if they play by the age grouper rules. Part of why they ended up with such massive margins in Nice vs at Finland (Jalabert only got 5th place) is because they can descend like slalom skiers. We can't take that away from them on account of the doping past. They are probably the two best bike handlers in the entire field at Nice (remember Vino was the guy breaking away on the decent to Gap and it was chasing him that cause Beloki to crash and Lance to go cross country).

I also do get that it matters more for someone like you who may be going for podiums, vs the rest of us who are pack fodder.

Just stating the facts from today: both showed up today at the final ceremony. Neither Vinokurov nor Jala were booed. Quite the opposite, Jala has received the 3rd biggest applause, after Sam and the Bob Knuckey, the oldest finisher. He’s quite beloved in France.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not in the least jealous because Jalabert and Vinokourov are ex pro cyclists who have now turned to triathlon... good for them. The part that people resent is that they are allowed to compete after being suspended for doping offenses. Period. I don't care if they were Nascar drivers, if they tested positive and were given punishment for doping i dont feel they should be able to COMPETE in sports again. As I stated in a previous post, I think they should be able to participate, just not be involved in competitive results of any kind.

Re: "the 100s of doped AG athletes lined up", if you know this for fact I suggest you contact USADA, WADA etc with specific complaints so these athletes can be tested and given the appropriate penalties. Otherwise don't paint the sport as a dope fest.

Not saying I love Vino nor Jaja. They are not banned for life so they can compete in any wada signatory sport. Lance is banned for life for any world level or feeder level events that can get him to world's at any WADA sport so if Ironman allowed him in to compete here you would have a point.

You are right that I have no proof about the 100's of age groupers currently doping just like we have no proof if Jaja or Vino currently are doping.

But today's rules allows them to race after sitting in the sin bin. Hate the system for allowing that. Heck Vino took the London Olympic gold after sitting out his suspension ...that race was tailor made for Cav who most recently raced on Vino's Protour team !!!

The Olympic games let Vino back in after sitting out his time. Lots of former dopers like Justin Gatlin come back and win medals at the highest level. This is just meaningless slow old age groupers we are worried about. Relative to the Olympics, age group racing means not much at all.

IM should implement the rule that anyone that has raced ‘pro’ in any of the 3 sports is not eligible to compete in AG events. It’s honestly not a place for former cycling pros to reside. Kinda sad honestly.

I would agree with much of what you (Johnny21) say except the part about them not being able to compete again unless it was a Lance-like lifetime ban where he sorta has it coming to him just for being a d*** to everyone. I would amend this to read more like they can compete--just not for any sort of National or World titles. Like they have for the trans -open division...you can have the formerly doped tossed in there but no slots to anything. We need harsher penalties & if you have that riding on the line from day 1 as a pro or not--and cross it, well, you should have thought about all the future ramifications before you did it. I'm not sure about the part about tainted food sources though--that's a sticky question I have no answer for--because it does happen.

As for Paul, I actually see some of his points, but disagree with some of them. Rationalizing they won because they can decend better than anyone, I don't agree with. Let them compete--fine...just no titles (National or World). Sin bin or not--the past gave that permanent advantage. But I don't make the rules...we can only comment on them. I have a friend who was knocked off the Kona podium last minute by JJ--in 6th...think that didn't strike a chord knowing that past didn't have anything to do with it? Yeah...think again.

I hope they don't. No valid reason for a former pro to not be a competitor in an AG events. So, you are saying that someone who was a pro swimmer in their teens/20s or pro miler in their 20s can't come back in the their 50s and compete in the AG? A female swimmer who competed as a pro in her college years, retired to to raise a family, and take on a desk job until her 40s and 50s is no longer eligible to compete in AG events? That's ridiculous.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

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Just to win easily, sometimes that's fun. As pros they never got to do that.
To become the talk of the town (ST forum) about how impressive it is for former pros to dominate amateurs.

It's purely for ego, they obviously aren't looking to be challenged or they would be doing something else.

This makes no sense to me. Why shouldn't they be allowed to compete? Because they won the genetic lottery and are too good?

AG is reserved for those with mediocre talent?