What I don't get is niether Kraig nor Rip is willing to put thier legs where thier mouths are so why argue? It a simple case that it is easier for them to throw stones then too give something a spin.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

No, the kick makes no difference (speed-wise) in longer swims, which was what you originally suggested would benefit from PC work. Any distance swimmer who puts more energy into their kick will go slower, because they won't have the energy for their real propulsive muscles (upper body). That's because they are cardiac limited (as I understand it). But of course, you don't believe that. Yet another entire sport that doesn't have your level of understanding of exercise physiology. Take that any way you want.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

How many Powercranks have been sold to the masses? Just curious...

Wow, the thread that could not die...

"you gotta come up with the cash to motivate them"

Since the topic came up (again), how much cash are we talking about, roughly? My totally uninformed guess would be to study 10 volunteers for 6 months (again, if performance improves by anything like 40%, this should be enough of a sample) using their own bicycles and something relatively straightforward like 40 km TT power/time (giving little or no attention to the "why" question, focussed only on the "if") should be no more than US $5,000, $10k max. Is this in the ballpark?

Ken

rip asks: "What dots are you asking to be connected? So far, there isn't enough evidence that training with PCs does anything at all, so why would you expect respected scientists to be curious enough to test them? "

and yet, vis a vis PC's red-shoe-boy has already made his position known in posting this quote as " saying it best":

"" "Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth." "



not exactly the usual framework of action for a respected scientist, eh?



still, in the put up or shut up challenge of actully cashing the cheque red-shoe-boy let his mouth write, i do have to say i am suprised that thus far he has, at least, managed to shut up. it is a weak-tit way of cashing that cheque, to be sure - but even so i didn't think he had it in him.

"$50,000"

You were right, it would cost more than I would have imagined. And this does beat watching American idol.

Ken

"I was just commenting on how much money it would take to motivate me personally to undertake such a study"

Oh, I caught that point. But it did make me realize that in addition to whatever equipment might be involved, it would also require the investment of a certain amount of time on the part of an investigator(s), which unless donated, might be the most costly portion of any sort of study. I don't think I'd want to donate my time if I had the requisite expertise. I might be willing to undercut you though, but then again, maybe not. Incidentally, I loved the reference to quackwatch, very interesting site.

Ken

rip asks, " What the heck are you talking about? '

pay attention rip. that quote about 'it' being not about the pursuit of truth, but rather the winning of arguments is a quote red-shoe-boy whipped out earlier in the thread. he noted that the quote " said it best " regarding his position on PC's - that being one of debate, and not science.

well rip i was responding to a post wherin you dragged down a reference to red-shoe-boy, and then asked why a " respected scientist' would want to test PC's.

as such, it is not about you directly, but rather that particular post. sorry for the confusion.

uhhhh, no.

but i mean to say - if you wanna answer the question . . . . . . . well that would be good.

MUSCULAR ADAPTATIONS! Exactly. If I remember correctly. With proper training, even some slower fast-twitch fibers can act almost like slow twitch fibers, and some fast twitch fibers can, also with (different) training, act like very fast twitch fibers. Muscular adaptation does improve one's ability to better utilize our cardiac output. For many of us, muscular adaptation is not able to keep up with our VO2 max. For elite cyclists who clearly, among other things, pedal pedal better than most of the rest of us, better pedalling is probably less important.*

On the swimming issue. I disagree with Frank. In non-sprint swimming, the kick adds very little, and those large leg muscles chew up way more of our available cardiac output than they supply in speed. Also, if I remember, Doc Counsilman (sp?) showed that it was a negative in those circumstances.

*While I have no direct interest in this arguement, other than, if valid, it might result in my purchasing a pair (since my bike leg is easily the worst part of my racing), I find it humorous to think that you and Kraig rail against PC's, but are not willing to put them to the test, even though they have been offered for free (at least in Kraig's case).

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Ken,

You are taking the same track towards swimming that AC, RIP and others take towards cycling, simply saying it is not possible to improve beyond what is done now. Such an attitude is silly in my opinion if one is interested in improving. You might be right, but one doesn't know unless one tries.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks