I don't have PC's and have never seen a pair of 'real live' PC's, but if Frank is wrong, and he may be, why are we all using clipless pedals, or even toe-clips, since extensor function is all that mattters?

Why aren't world class swimmers automatically good cyclists, or runners, even if their extensors have a high percantage of slowtwitch fibers?

Muscle perfusion and training is important in reaching optimal function.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

Except for a few freaks out there like Skyman, most people when they first get on a pair of PC's probably do wonder what they bothered having clipless pedals for as it is clear they weren't using them to pull up on the backstroke. People buy clipless pedals so they can pull up. Having them doesn't mean you necessarily do to any significant extent.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Yaqui, I will relent. The VO2 max argument is academic masterbating and has essentially nothing to do with real racing or training. I will let it drop, or, at least I will try, cause it is clear neither side is backing down.

Good post.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

 
[quote]However, the PC's might be used as an adjunct to give them better capable hip flexors such that they can have a stronger kick, expecially for the longer events.[/quote]

Yes, it's really important for distance swimmers to have a stronger kick. Give me a break. You don't actually know anything about swimming, do you?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Kraig,

I stand by the claims. 40% increase in power in the TYPICAL (so, I guess, that means on average, or about 50% will see that number or something like that) new user in 6-9 months if used according to the directions, which means, essentially, exclusively. If you have evidence to the contrary, why don't you submit it to the FTC or to me, I have no reason to claim anything else based upon the numbers available to me.

What a bunch of BS.

Respectfully,

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Ken,

if the kick made no difference in swimming speed then distance swimmers and sprinters would kick the same, they don't. If it would be possible to help the distance swimmers to kick more by giving the kicking muscle more capability and endurance, then it should be possible to help them to swim faster. That is my only point. Of course, if they can't kick more because they are cardiac limited, then that is another story.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Kraig,

You are kidding, of course. All of the personages you mention, with the exception of yourself have never ridden the PC's (as far as I know except for JB who rode them for a couple of minutes at Interbike once). Then, then all, including yourself, manage to diminish every report of success or new PR from users, who are simply trying to relate their experiences with the product to others which the internet is pretty good at, as due to increased volume or placebo or other such stuff. There is no conspiracy. Just a bunch of close minded people with great big biases. It is a common weakness amongst the "powerful" in all sorts of disciplines. Cycling is no exception.

If there were only an occasional report of success with lots of reports of little or no gain, then you might have something. You don't.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

OK Kraig, here is what I will do for you.

A one year performance guarantee. I will guarantee you a 25% increase in power over the next year (I would go higher but you are clearly an above average cyclist now, so you are not my typical customer) if you can give me baseline data regarding your power now at a certain HR for a specified distance, you ride PC's exclusively in training for this period (you can race on regular cranks if you wish), keep a log to document exclusive use (I trust you to be truthful), you report back to this group regularly on your experience, and your follow-up test is at the same effort (HR) and conditions. fail to reach 25% power increase and your money is returned and you can keep the cranks if you desire.

That seems fair. The ball is in your court. Tell this to the FTC.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Kraig,

You must be kidding. I claim a 40% increase in power in 6-9 months not 60 days. And that guarantee is for exclusive use. Part time use, no guarantee, no deal. Tell that to the FTC.

And, put your money where your mouth is. That way we don't have to worry about the placebo effect.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

You cannot dictate how the product should be used to achieve the ends, especially since, you clearly do not understand the product or you would not make such a silly offer. If you won't commit to the hard work, no deal. If any experienced PowerCranker out there thinks I should go for this, let me know.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

No, Kraig, you don't understand.

The guarantee is plenty long enough for everyone to see the potential for benefit and to return them if they don't see it. It would be unweildly for me to offer a 1 year money-back performance improvement guarantee. I considered it but thought it unworkable from a business point of view.

Take your complaints to the FTC. I have done this type of deal on numerous occasions. TTN and Phil Holman were two that come to mind. I can assure you, if I do this with you, 2 years from now there will be some other know-it-all claiming your (and everybody elses) improvements to be simply placebo effect and your conversion to be simply coming under my spell because such improvements are simply impossible.

Oh, and no 15 cents a word. I don't want anyone thinking I am paying you for a glowing report or reports. If you are paid by the word for your "reviews" we now know how much they must be worth as unbiased reports. Pretend you are Consumers Reports, you buy the product and use it according to the directions and then report on your findings. I just offer this extra guarantee to you because you are so negative and turning you would be such a coup.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Exclusive use (>95% of the time) except for racing and testing (use your SRM's for testing if you want) and regular testing would be reasonable (not everyday, cause then you aren't ridng the PC's "exclusively") If you want one of the experts here to design a testing protocol, that is fine with me. i just want to look at power and effort for a particular period of time that is reasonable (1 mile to 20 miles).

I expect you will start to see some power improvement starting for shorter distances within the month but everyone is different and the claim is for about 40% within 6-9 months but i am guaranteeing you 25% within a year for distances up to 40k. I doubt it will take that long.

Order what you want at the web page and let the games begin. Get in on the close out and save some money. The unwashed masses await your progress reports with eager anticipation. I even suspect there might be a few academics who will be watching with interest.

Have "fun". After you have been on them awhile you might consult with Mr. ttn on the proper recipe for humble pie.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

So what should I do folks? I normally will provide cranks to journalists, etc. for review, without charge but I put the same agreement on them, that they use them exclusively for a certain period of time. Many don't go for it because they review too much stuff to dedicate the time. They don't get them. Some promise then don't perform. I am a little leary here in view of his 'tude, so to speak.

I am not sure I hear a commitment to use them as required. Also, i should specify no Redbrand shoes as we don't want the cranks to get a false positive report. That would be really misleading.

I leave it up to you. The polls are open.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Do PC's have anything to offer for specialized
training that cannot be found anywhere else ?

The answer is yes.

Does anyone know what this is.

mr day do not send r-s-b a pair. he is obviously not interested in any sort of good faith arrangement.

how he can continue to play prissy little word games, dance enigmatically around any sort of straight up challenge, and by his own words NOT seek the truth but instead simply to out-debate people and yet STILL wish to be seen as a valid researcher is far far beyond me.

a hard edged challenge is one thing, and you have entered those before and i am sure will again. nothing r-s-b has said in this or other related threads leads any thinking person to believe he will offer a hard critical challenge of anything.

it is one thing to be skeptical and even hostile. comes a time when you either put up or shut up, tho. red shoe is unwilling, indeed probably INCAPABLE of either one, that much is clear.

personally i think most peope can read thru his prissy word games, and bias. he has some verbal skill, in that passive aggresisve manner which that old psycho girlfriend we all had i referenced earlier had in spades as well. he is just trying to push buttons.

Dr. Day: I say do it. If Kraig really isn't a very good biker, as he hints, I think he'll see enough improvement using them 50% of the time that it will at least crack open the wall of disbelief sufficiently to demonstrate a measurable benefit to him. If he is a good biker and is misreprenting his abilities, he will still see enough benefit from training on PowerCranks to want to continue, even if he doesn't see as much benefit as targetted.

I had to almost choke laughing when Kraig requested to be paid for his writing...that had to either be a trap set to demonstrate how you are unethical, or simple greediness on his part! Come on, get real!

Here's what I would say to further nail down the terms:

1) Include running, at least a couple of miles...5K is a sort of "standard" distance. Stand-alone 5K or after the bike, doesn't matter. I think this is where a gain will be seen even using them only half the time, even in a short time-span.

2) The biking test should either be no longer than Kraig can pedal without sufficient hip flexor fatigue that requires his cadence to be lower than 15 rpm below his "normal" Pre-PC training; OR, have him do the post-test on regular cranks, too...partial adaptation still provides a power benefit, but partial adaptation sucks during a race-like test if you have to stop pedalling.

3) Require his "baseline" tests to be done within a week. That will remove Kraig's tendency to do the obviously possible: "Uh-oh, I better get training to get my initial results as high as possible"...something that smells awfully akin to the "reason" Kraig infers PC's may work for some people.

4) It would really be nice to have the Power data from the baseline cycling test and the post-training test available for comparison.

Dang Kraig. What have you gotten yourself into? You just might have to change your mind about PC training! Could you stomach the possibility? Would that idea be so foul that you could still honestly do the research? You certainly seem to be governed by the power of suggestion so much that RedShoes seem to produce positive results!

In spite of all of these possible negatives, (and MANY others not listed) I think it's worth challenging the biases of this lone subject. A study, it is not. A challenge to someone that at least has some idea of how to do a study correctly, it is.

I say, let him do it.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

well yaqui offers some viable aspects to the challenge.

i still say no, for the reasons a bove.

however, if you DO say yes it has to be at LEAST what you gave me. exclusive use, 10 weeks, full mileage/time. i am no elite cyclist, a very average schmoe. yes, red-shoe-boy, it hurts. yes, it is a little inconvienient. that is the way things go when you issue challenges and somebody calls you on it. instead of desparately trying to finagle and control and qualify etc etc like a whimpering little girl i manned up and rode, and did it 10 weeks before an IM. what will you do? as i said to mr day, i do not think you capable of performing a good faith test, in any case and would still advise against any sort of "bargained" test. put up, or shut up, red shoe boy.

either way tho, i have a package of wisconsin bratwurst that sez r-s-b is incapable of putting up or shutting up, either one.