Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP.
Quote | Reply
I know some of you say that we should make all races draft-legal so everyone is on a level playing field. However, draft-legal races and inexperienced cyclists in aerobars equals crashes on the road constantly and that increases the danger of the event and liability to the race organizers. So that won't happen, period.

In addition, when the pros race in ITU draft legal racing all you find is huge peletons and any breakaways are usually caught, so the entire event becomes one of who can conserve energy enough for the run. Now I don't want to get into a pissing match about how fast the pros are going and how tough it is in the peleton. The fact is that the draft-legal racing provides a faster bike split for everyone in the peleton, it allows one to conserve energy and breakaways from the pack are usually futile attempts. This type of racing is fine for the Pro's and creates a level playing field for them. However, not suitable for the average triathlon, Ironman included.

So my question is, why does the USAT, WTC and other governing bodies allow drafting to continue when it's apparent it is cheating and a voilation of the rules? The course marshall's only catch less than 10% of the cheaters and it's usually a time penalty which is a slap on the wrist. Cutting the course, using illegal PED's , a motor on your bike, using swim fins, etc would be a disqualification because it's "cheating". Even unsportsmanlike conduct can get you disqualified. Why not make drafting a disqualification too? You get caught once on the course, your DQ'd.

So it seems as if there are ACCEPTABLE FORMS OF CHEATING for the USAT and WTC. We have the technology and know how to catch these cheaters too. There are several ways, more course marshalls, actually telling the participants they will be disqualified for drafting prior to the race and the specators see these peletons go by and they could report them all. Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.

It seems to me why this form of cheating is acceptable is because triathletes in general either allow it to happen and say nothing or they cheat themselves. So why should the USAT and WTC get tough on this type of cheating when few people complain about it.

It was apparent again in Kona that cheating is acceptable for the most part. Okay, they did bust less than 10% of the drafters but the majority got away with it. Some would say that it's only cheating if you get caught and you need to push the envelope a little to finish well. Others say that it is up to the individual to conduct ones self in a sportsmanlike manner. But as we can see in EVERY Ironman race and EVERY triathlon drafting occurs, so it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the race organizers and governing body to ENFORCE THE RULES of the event to make it a FAIR race for EVERYONE.

To those that say it's not cost effective to strong enforce drafting. I have never heard of a race losing revenues for being hard nose on drafting. Plus, if I stole a pair of jeans from a local store because I had no money and I needed them, do you think I could effectively argue to the policeman that it would be more cost effective to let me go then to process me through the judicial system.

We need to HOLD OUR GOVERNING BODIES of triathlon accountable, because we cannot hold ourselves accountable. Sad but true..:-(
Last edited by: trihard4me: Oct 18, 12 9:11
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's about time someone on here finally said something about drafting....
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trihard4me wrote:
Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.

That you can say that shows that you don't really understand GPS and how accurate it actually is.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run

Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Devlin wrote:
trihard4me wrote:
Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.


That you can say that shows that you don't really understand GPS and how accurate it actually is.

John

Well, it *is*, just not the stuff that we have access to... :)
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [npage148] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
npage148 wrote:
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run

I would assume I'd hear from some fellow cheaters like you. You are the type of triathlete we all should hate, low moral character and low integrity.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [npage148] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
npage148 wrote:
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run

First penalty: check in at tent and then 2 mile run loop at T2
Second penalty: check in at tent, wait 4 min, then 2 more miles at T2

It is not really that hard to institute....just have a section of tarmac that is 200m out 200m back and do 8 laps in front of the crowd. That will seriously shut down the drafting between the penalty and mutiple loops of shame :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Devlin wrote:
trihard4me wrote:
Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.


That you can say that shows that you don't really understand GPS and how accurate it actually is.

John

You are wrong, the technology is there. I am not an electronic engineer but I've got to believe it exists or can be implemented to suit our needs. The only thing is the cost that would be involved. However, we could have more marshalls along the course even just standing there watching the riders go by and radioing ahead. It's not that hard.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So my question is, why does the USAT, WTC and other governing bodies allow drafting to continue when it's apparent it is cheating and a voilation of the rules?

____________________

I have to think alot of it has to do with because we are their customers. What's in every race day info, the rules that are most commonly broken which are bike positioning and drafting penalties. There are a TON of drafters who knowingly draft, but also the mom and sister who have no clue what they are doing when they are riding behind each other at the tail end of the course. So, I think drafting is one of those kid gloves moments for race organizers. Do they really DQ someone for drafting after they acknowledge it's the most broken rule, and then potentially lose said customer because they are "offended"?

This is a customer service sport, first and foremost, and due to that, that has to be a factor in understanding the process by which the rules are put together. The moment a company/race organization gives immediate DQ's for drafting, I'd be shocked and would say they are actually serious about eliminating drafting even while potential losing customers.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Oct 18, 12 8:19
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
npage148 wrote:
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run


First penalty: check in at tent and then 2 mile run loop at T2
Second penalty: check in at tent, wait 4 min, then 2 more miles at T2

It is not really that hard to institute....just have a section of tarmac that is 200m out 200m back and do 8 laps in front of the crowd. That will seriously shut down the drafting between the penalty and mutiple loops of shame :-)

Great idea !!
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Military precision GPS yes, commercial GPS, not ideal. If the DoD opened up the miltiary stuff for commecial use that would be awesome but then terrorists could use he DoD sattelites that are GPS equipped to help guide armaments with way too much precision, so I don't think we're getting access. At least that is my understanding!
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cool story bro.

How much did you get for your "Kona slot"?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...kona%20slot;#4224734

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trihard4me wrote:
npage148 wrote:
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run


I would assume I'd hear from some fellow cheaters like you. You are the type of triathlete we all should hate, low moral character and low integrity.

Never said I'm a proponent of drafting just saying why it's so accepted. The punishment doesn't fit the "crime." It's like robbing a bank and only being forced to pay back 50% of the money you stole, why not do it?

I like Dev's 2 mile run of shame, like like missing a target in a biathlon. Run fast to get it done or run slow to save energy? L
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So my question is, why does the USAT, WTC and other governing bodies allow drafting to continue when it's apparent it is cheating and a voilation of the rules?

____________________

I have to think alot of it has to do with because we are their customers. What's in every race day info, the rules that are most commonly broken which are bike positioning and drafting penalties. There are a TON of drafters who knowingly draft, but also the mom and sister who have no clue what they are doing when they are riding behind each other at the tail end of the course. So, I think drafting is one of those kid gloves moments for race organizers. Do they really DQ someone for drafting after they acknowledge it's the most broken rule, and then potentially lose said customer because they are "offended"?

This is a customer service sport, first and foremost, and due to that, that has to be a factor in understanding the process by which the rules are put together. The moment a company/race organization gives immediate DQ's for drafting, I'd be shocked and would say they are actually serious about eliminating drafting even while potential losing customers.


Good point, however, what about the newbie who accidently cuts the course, it's no different. Everyone should know the rules and not be disappointed for being disqualified for a violation of the rules. The rules exist for the safety or the participant and the fair competition for everyone. Accidently breaking the rules in a triathlon is no different than doing it on purpose, cheating effects everyone whether intentional or not. DQ them.
Last edited by: trihard4me: Oct 18, 12 8:29
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Drafting is what it is. It's not cheating at the level of PEDs, because the rulebook treats it differently. Just like theft is not punished as harshly as murder is, drafting is not the same as doping.

Drafting is bad and I dislike seeing big trains of guys at races I partake in, but you're making a claim about its severity that isn't backed up by the current ruleset in triathlon. If the rulebook says you can trade the risk of a 4-minute penalty (followed by more severe penalties later) for drafting, then is it really breaking the rules? Hockey players will take penalties on purpose to prevent breakaways - are they cheating? Basketball players foul each other all the time - are they cheating?

PS: I don't draft in my races, but saying that it is as bad as PEDs/motors/fins when the rulebook clearly indicates it isn't is dumb. I'd fully support a series with instant DQs for drafting, but there isn't one nearby and the logical outcome of that (really pissed off customers) means there probably never will be.

If you want something to be done about it, then vote with your cash and effort, rather than posting online:
-Don't go to races that have you packed like sardines (pretty much everything with >500 people and mass starts)
-Write your local RDs and request stricter drafting enforcement or TT starts

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
Last edited by: AHare: Oct 18, 12 8:31
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actually, I did the ITU long distance worlds in Fredericia Denmark one year, and they did have a loop in front of the crowd where drafters had to run. I thought at the time it was a great idea, and always wondered why it was not instituted. I'm sure basically, it is because races sell out and WTC, etc really don't care! It's the money.......


devashish_paul wrote:
npage148 wrote:
I see drafting like offensive lineman holding in football. Sure it's against the rules but the way the rules are written, the benefits you gain easily offset the penalty if (big if) you get caught. Unless you make the penlites actually penalties (20 minutes in the tent for drafting) people will continue to work the rules, especially at local hero pile up tris (like Kona) where everyone is roughly the same skill level.

Go ahead and draft away (saving time and energy), take the 4 minute penalty to refuel and rock the run


First penalty: check in at tent and then 2 mile run loop at T2
Second penalty: check in at tent, wait 4 min, then 2 more miles at T2

It is not really that hard to institute....just have a section of tarmac that is 200m out 200m back and do 8 laps in front of the crowd. That will seriously shut down the drafting between the penalty and mutiple loops of shame :-)

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trihard4me wrote:
Devlin wrote:
trihard4me wrote:
Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.


That you can say that shows that you don't really understand GPS and how accurate it actually is.

John


You are wrong, the technology is there. I am not an electronic engineer but I've got to believe it exists or can be implemented to suit our needs. The only thing is the cost that would be involved. However, we could have more marshalls along the course even just standing there watching the riders go by and radioing ahead. It's not that hard.

Ok, excuse me mr. pedantic, yes, if you want to pay many millions to have access to military hardware to catch drafting at Podunkville Try a tri then you can get closer. Civilian and possibly affordable are going to have a +/- of ~ 6 feet. So that's a 12 foot margin of error, or almost half of the 7 meter drafting zone. You want to hang your hat on that concept? Go ahead.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [AHare] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AHare wrote:
Drafting is what it is. It's not cheating at the level of PEDs, because the rulebook treats it differently. Just like theft is not punished as harshly as murder is, drafting is not the same as doping.

Drafting is bad and I dislike seeing big trains of guys at races I partake in, but you're making a claim about its severity that isn't backed up by the current ruleset in triathlon. If the rulebook says you can trade the risk of a 4-minute penalty for drafting, then is it really breaking the rules? Hockey players will take penalties on purpose to prevent breakaways - are they cheating? Basketball players foul each other all the time - are they cheating?

PS: I don't draft in my races, but saying that it is as bad as PEDs/motors/fins when the rulebook clearly indicates it isn't is dumb.

If you want something to be done about it, then vote with your cash and effort, rather than posting online:
-Don't go to races that have you packed like sardines (pretty much everything with >500 people and mass starts)
-Write your local RDs and request stricter drafting enforcement or TT starts

So PED's give an individual a 10% increase in performance, drafting can give you the same increase in performance. Cutting the course on the run even by a little bit can save you 5%. All are forms of cheating, thus giving an advantage to the cheater. Fouling in hockey and basketball is almost unavoidable with all the close contact involved. Triathlon drafting IS avoidable there lies the difference.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trihard4me wrote:
Devlin wrote:
trihard4me wrote:
Plus, we all use timing chips and GPS so it is possible to detect if someone is within 7 meters of another rider for longer than 15 seconds.


That you can say that shows that you don't really understand GPS and how accurate it actually is.

John


You are wrong, the technology is there. I am not an electronic engineer but I've got to believe it exists or can be implemented to suit our needs. The only thing is the cost that would be involved. However, we could have more marshalls along the course even just standing there watching the riders go by and radioing ahead. It's not that hard.

So you're saying he's wrong because you "believe it exists"! Excellent.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hooking/tripping on a break away is 100% avoidable in hockey. It's done on purpose because the benefit outweighs the penelty. Same with offensive holding.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So are you saying you do understand the customer service side of the sport, and still saying screw it, or are you simply saying you dont understand the customer side of the sport?

Look, I'm not making excuses for why they allow drafting, I'm basically stating, why drafting is treated with kid gloves. Which is why I said in another thread that "fair" play isnt the #1 priority for WTC. It's about looking out for it's own best interests.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why bother writing the RD's and race organizers with complaints about drafting when most don't care and neither does the USAT or WTC or any governing body. I'd just be wasting my time, like I am now.

Just as I thought, MOST of you here either don't care and just complain and say nothing about it or cheat yourselves.

Cheat on bro.... I'll still smoke ya.
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [trihard4me] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think what you fail to realize, is that many on here are bringing up rational points to the discussion, which you either fail to take into account, or want to brush aside. Look, drafting should be delt more harshly, but when your a race organization that depends on racers to fill your pocket with money in order to surive, do you really think they will DQ people for the most broken rules in the sport?

It sucks that we as a sport make it a hard line decision for many racers to say "Ok, do I draft right now and race for the win, or do I sit up, race correctly but probaly lost the race". That's a BS situation to put people in, but I also dont think many race organizers care to actually make a hard line, line in the sand with drafting. It could potentially hurt business too much.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So are you saying you do understand the customer service side of the sport, and still saying screw it, or are you simply saying you dont understand the customer side of the sport?

Look, I'm not making excuses for why they allow drafting, I'm basically stating, why drafting is treated with kid gloves. Which is why I said in another thread that "fair" play isnt the #1 priority for WTC. It's about looking out for it's own best interests.

Well the next time a go to my local race, I'll just say I did not know you could not wear fins on the swim. Why not let the newbies cut the course too, wear paddles on the swim, heck lets provide them with a head start too and when all else fails lets give them an award because we like their money. Oh wait, we do that now. I suppose we should tell our children it's okay to cheat on a test as long as the penality is not too severe. Go Lance....
Quote Reply
Re: Drafting on bike is Cheating and it NEEDS to STOP. [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
According to our OP here, this guy should have been DQ'd from Kona.

Such a wheel sucker...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Quote Reply

Prev Next