Quote: "let me tell you what an ombudsman does. i'm going to demonstrate. '"We have royally, as an organization, screwed the pooch in the messaging and handling of how we're going to deal with lance threads!'"

Dan,

I read something like this message before, maybe upthread, maybe in your op-ed. I have to say, it was the most transparent I've seen you be about the recent difficulties at Slowtwitch. Often, when reading someone who is trying to say a few conflicting things at once, their message sounds anxious, defensive, contradictory. I'm not sure if that was the case with your posts recently, but something seemed off, as if you have been distracted while posting. Usually, you're so on point.

So, first, thanks for this post, an "aha" moment for me, a longtime member, and a really welcome one. To be frank, it kind of saved the whole thing from being a wreck.

Second, though, and please tell me if I'm crossing a line, can you say why your messaging and handling of how you're dealing with Lance threads has been confusing or, to paraphrase, screwed up? I wouldn't have asked if you hadn't brought it up; if that's a bridge too far, I understand. You've been forthcoming and I appreciate that.

Great forum, great site. Great post (above). Thanks for all three.

Andrew Moss

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"At the end he was staggering into parked cars and accusing his support-van driver of trying to poison him." A description of John Dunbar in the 1st Hawaii Iron Man

Yet it's impossible for someone who's t-levels are well below 200ng/dl to get a TUE despite needing supplementation to function normally day to day.

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Its "doping" if the PGA says it is. I don't think it should be made illegal, but if they make it illegal then yeah it is. its interesting what another poster said about alcohol. I don't take any pills except rarely when it perscribed, most pain meds for an operation. No vitamins, so supplements etc. But if alcohol was put on the banned list out of competition, then yes, I'd still have beer now and again (and again) and I'd still compete.

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Styrrell

Well, in keeping with the golfing analogies, would/should they then consider glasses/contacts as performance enhancers?

Thanks for what it's worth, I probably wouldn't have commented if you said "practically no one" because there isn't a lot of compromise going around here, though this thread has stayed fairly civil. TravisT and a few others are working the middle ground a bit. A big part of the issues Im seeing with doping is the fact that people feel so defeated by it.

And so it goes. I'm surprised it took 7ish pages for someone to start bringing up every outlying procedure and saying "What about this? What about that? Why isn't X and Y illegal?"

The WADA list is the WADA list. If you don't like something on it, such as marijuana, start a campaign to have it taken off. Get off your ass and do something. Similarly, if you think something SHOULD be on the list but isn't, start a campaign.

The discussion is NOT about what should or should not be on the list. The conversation is (or at least was) how do we most effectively enforce the list in existence?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

John, I agree with your line of thinking....kinda my point in my previous post, as this is descending into the realm of the ridiculous.

But, I suppose, what else is new?

And that a lot of people just don't care at all, at least on the AG side. From the other doping thread currently active, a few quotes:


John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

And it's been appealed as far as it can be? Every avenue has been exhausted? Then you're right, the system completely failed this person so the whole thing should be scrapped.

From my experience getting a TUE (Admittedly for a much lesser medication) was much simpler.

Me: I think I need a TUE
USADA: Great, we'll mail you the forms
Me: Hey, doc, need these forms filled out.
Doc: No problem.
Me: Here's my forms, USADA.
USADA, Great, here's your TUE.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

It's pretty easy for a good age group runner to qualify for Boston. I've done it without really trying too hard. But qualifying for Vegas is much harder, and Kona is pretty much beyond my reach.

To be clear, I agree testing protocols - especially the passport - are having more success at the pro level. In this particular case I was referring to amateur testing. My point being that what I learned from The Secret Race was that it's easy (for amateurs) to take EPO and not be detected. Books like this are highly interesting/entertaining, but also educational to those who might not otherwise have doped at the amateur level.

Absolutely a TUE for simple medication is not an issue. But I'd like to hear from anyone who is actually been able to get a TUE for something like test or steriods. There are legitimate uses for these drugs and some people actually need them to function day to day and still want to compete. Judging from what I know first hand it is impossible get a TUE for one of those "worse" drugs and that is a problem.

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For which drug? Asthma meds? Cortisone cream?

In my experience, no one gets a TUE for the true performance enhancers. Maybe someone who's had both testicles shot off might be a candidate, but I am wondering if you are the first we've heard about?

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Asthma. I stated it was a simpler med. (And changed, so no longer TUE necessary).

What is your experience that "no one" gets a TUE for the true performance enhancers? What is on that list? How many do you know that have tried?

Do I know of any personally? No. But I also don't know anyone in that kind of disease state either, so I don't know of anyone that has tried.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Agreed, and admittedly you have the experience that I don't.

But, they outline the method and conditions by which a TUE for testosterone can be given. If the athlete has followed that, and the TUE has been denied, then it should be able to be appealed to a higher authority, although I don't know the oversight structure well enough to know which that would be. I would imagine WADA/CAS, but I don't know for sure.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I do know someone first hand who needed it for severe health issues. They exhausted all their options and were still denied. That is a problem with the system.

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Agreed. See my post above, I would think (Although again, I am murky on the command structure above USADA) that there is somewhere that it could be appealed.

So, if it's broken what can we do to fix it, rather than talk about how unjust it is? If there is no appeals process, lobby for one. If there is one and it failed, pursue it legally. YAHOO.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I do. It's called OOC testing. Cheating OOC takes a quite significant amount of criminal energy that will tale away any joy left of racing.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I disagree. If there is an OOC / IC testing protocol, it will be difficult to get away with EPO, because if you dont know when the test is, you wont know when you can take it safely. Im not advocating for OOC for everyone, just top AG in a cross spectrum across USAT AG All Americans and honorable mentions (or whatever the second level is).

Pros have popped for EPO and they have top level doping doctors supporting them. Pros can handle microdosing and getting away with it with lots of support, amateurs would be significantly challenged to put that kind of process together to avoid OOC.

THIS.

That's the ticket. The mere chance of being tested would be a huge deterrent. It's always interesting when (very, very occasionally) USADA shows up at a random bike race and the guys killing it suddenly suck.

"can you say why your messaging and handling of how you're dealing with Lance threads has been confusing or, to paraphrase, screwed up?"

probably in part because i've been pretty darned conflicted about all this myself. but i think it's a combination of a few things. first, my moderation on this is based on my attempt to just keep to our longtime forum rules. it's hard to talk about lance and doping against the backdrop of our forum rules, the chief of which, in this case, is that you can't accuse somebody of doping unless they have been so-judged by the relevant authorities. that's worked nicely in the past, but has been hard for our readers to negotiate around in the current climate.

second, i came home from interbike sick, and had to spend a week not swimming, cycling, and running and that week (last week) with you folks, without the intermittent swim and bike, etc., throughout the day, was a rough go. i'm sure i was not in my right mind.

now, completely off topic, but relevant to your post, my right hand man (woman) charlee went to see the doggy lord about 3 weeks ago and that's been a rough go. probably through me off my game.

finally - and you can call me incredibly naive for taking until very recently to realize this, and you would be right - i didn't grasp that it was not possible to nuance the lance issue AT ALL. it's like nuancing abortion. or climate change. no can do. it's verdun, and the french are in the french trench and the germans are in the german trench and machine guns are overheating and mustard gas is tearing at everybody's lungs and i'm standing in no man's land like rodney king asking if we all can't get along, and then i'm surprised (like an idiot) when i'm getting strafed from both directions.

not complaining. just answering your question as best i can.

in short, that's it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That was awesome.

So I guess you hear me LOUND AND CLEAR where I am coming from and don't feel the need to reply any longer.

Got it.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Sorry for quoting this entire post. I'm going to take a little bit of the opposite stance, but I'd ask a couple of questions, and provide a couple of examples. The first question is should this person be racing in the first place if they have a 'severe health issue'? The second is does this person have enough history of testing to determine what their 'baseline' level of whatever hormone or substance they are deficient in?

I know two professionals who have had the same scenario. I do not know if one of them tried to get any TUEs for the medication needed to remedy their adrenal, etc. issues. He simply stopped racing, judged it better to get healthy before racing again. The second tried to get a TUE and either was denied or didn't go through quite enough channels. He opted to go ahead with the medication AND go ahead an race...based on my reading of his blog. He was 'randomly' tested last year at a race, tested positive, and is now serving a ban. So, that goes to my first question in that should an athlete really be racing in the first place? Not for fear of being drug tested and subsequently being banned for a positive test, but from a 'severe health condition' point of view. In all honesty, if faced with the same situation, I would write USAT or whoever my NGB was and not necessarily ask for a TUE, but instead ask for a stay of my professional license so that I could get healthy and then return to racing.

Secondly, it's like someone mentioned in a post above. I have a testosterone level of 'x' and yours is 'y'. Maybe they are both normal, maybe mine is normal and yours is low normal. At what point can you say that you need supplementation. What if yours has always been low normal? What if your snapshot in time shows that you are severely deficient, but you have no idea what your level was when healthy? So, now you are supplementing and you are suddenly the high end of normal. What then? Are you cured and suddenly recovering, racing, etc. faster than you might have been before because instead of being on the low end of normal you are now at the high end of normal? I think that we've all read enough lately about how certain baseline levels respond much better than others. So, if you are typically low-normal on some level and suddenly go to high normal you are going to get a much better effect than someone who is normal high normal and goes to slightly higher normal. It's really all math.

These are hypotheticals. But, the endurance population doesn't necessarily fit into the 'normal' category on so many levels. And, I'm just trying to make the point that while it might be a bit of a hole in the system, I can see why it would be nearly impossible to get a TUE for a true 'performance enhancer' as mentioned above.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

"The mere chance of being tested would be a huge deterrent. "

I suspect that is a bit of wishful thinking on the part of those of us who wish to see AG testing. And surely it will deter a few. But the ego is a funny thing and will drive us to extremes. I suspect there would still be a larger swath than we'd care to admit of determined cheaters for whom OOC testing is nothing more than a speed bump they are willing to risk. By and large I suspect it is mostly the same group that are doping today. After all, there is a pretty good blueprint out there throughout various interwebz for those who wish to dope and escape detection.