But should pot heads represent the sport of triathlon? Just look at Micheal Phelps when he was popped for MJ. He didnt fail a drug test it was the incriminating photo of him doing it and he was banned for 3 months. My kids swim. They know who Micheal Phelps is and look up to him. I do not want them to think its is ok because if Phelps did it then its ok. You represent more than yourself when you become pro so illegal drugs should be on hte list just for that reason alone.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [orphious]
[ In reply to ]
orphious wrote:
But should pot heads represent the sport of triathlon? Just look at Micheal Phelps when he was popped for MJ. He didnt fail a drug test it was the incriminating photo of him doing it and he was banned for 3 months. My kids swim. They know who Micheal Phelps is and look up to him. I do not want them to think its is ok because if Phelps did it then its ok. You represent more than yourself when you become pro so illegal drugs should be on hte list just for that reason alone.I hope you realize how weak your argument is when you are equating removing pot from the banned list to making potheads the face of triathlon. It is not a performance enhancer nor universally illegal. It is a government issue and if you feel so strongly about it make sure to vote for more government control over people's lives.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
I am saying I dont want illegal drugs removed from the banned list because they have no place in any sports. If the govt wants to legalize then fine... no longer banned a substance. Until that time...if you want to compete dont smoke the reefer.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [orphious]
[ In reply to ]
Go back and read what pick6 wrote and understand there are other countries with different laws besides the U.S. WADA does not solely exist for one country.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
TravisT wrote:
pick6 wrote:
orphious wrote:
I think they should leave the banned list just the way it is. If Joe Schmoe wants to smoke some reefer well fine but he needs to know there are consquences to smoking and be willing to accept those consequences. Illegal drugs are, wel,l illegal and it doesn't look good in any sport for anyone to come up positive for any drugs performance enhancing or not.Except WADA's list applies even in countries where the drugs aren't illegal. Go race ITU in the European countries where pot and other drugs are legalized, and think about how careful you have to be not to have some in your system. Visiting whole parts of town might be hard. That's why I can see an issue. I know people see it as morality due to the difference in laws, but there is absolutely a safety component to it.
Yeah but its AMERICA! The only country that matters.
LOL. Nice, 'Merica - sun's out; guns out!
That said, The USA provides much of the global leadership in so many areas, it's hard to overemphasize their influence. I don't know the exact numbers but there are countries where pot is decriminalized, including at least partially in the US. Yet it's still on the list. I'd like to think it, and any other potentially impairing drugs are on there for safety reasons rather than moral ones, and rather than try to leave it to the NGOs the doctors (who unlike politicians or lawyers) do actually know whats better for us, included them to keep us all from getting seriously hurt by a coked up guy on the course. There are a couple top level cyclists popped for coke including Boonen; if i were at that level I know I wouldnt want a guy all extra twitchy riding next to me on some impossibly narrow mountain pass with a sheer cliff 5 feet away from us.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Slowman]
[ In reply to ]
Slowman wrote:
i know that the world is becoming more complicated. i see the day when doping becomes an issue of gene manipulation and then, man, i don't know what you do about that.Along the same lines: Also coming--unless the rules are changed--is the day when we are forced to choose between (1) embracing technology that could enable us to live longer and healthier vs. (2) continuing to compete legally in this sport. Are we going to revisit our fundamental philosophical assumptions about how to define illegitimate doping, or are we going to bury our heads in the sand while rational people who care about their lives leave the sport?
-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [orphious]
[ In reply to ]
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list.Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
@pick6 I agree with you that no ones wants toked up athletes on the race course but you have to take a commen sense approach to this as well. The banned list and the associated rules are directed at the elite athletes. The only person dumb enough or uncaring about their performance to be smoking a bowl on race morning isn't someone who is ever going to be subject to one of these tests. It's just a morality play to have it on the list. I think pot is disgusting but I find banning something just because somebody finds it wrong based on their own belief set just as bad.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Eppur si muove]
[ In reply to ]
i still think the case of tiger woods is germane here. the guy had laser surgery done on his (already pretty good) eyes, and became better than 20/20. that kind of acuity is hugely helpful for a golfer (or a baseball player - just ask ted williams).
should that be legal? is it 'doping?'
-mike
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should that be legal? is it 'doping?'
-mike
____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Robert]
[ In reply to ]
Robert wrote:
Does any American believe in representative democracy when it comes to issues they disagree with? BaucusCare, military funding, global warming, tax policy, you name it. The truth, which is supported by ample evidence, is that our representatives are asleep at the switch. At the rate at which our freedoms are being eviscerated by our representatives, it won't be long before our right to vote them out will be taken away. For instance, Obama has presided over the largest increase in wiretapping of US citizens of any President. And he's supposedly a LIBERAL! Good grief, what would the conservatives do? Also, please do not conflate disagreement over a single policy with my views on our republican form of government. -Robert
Yes, I still believe in representative democracy when I don't agree with the outcome of decisions made by government officials or government-funded agencies. I tend to blame the represented as much, or maybe more, than their representatives for the state of things.
Last edited by:
Mark Lemmon: Oct 2, 12 12:25
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
TravisT wrote:
Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
But how do you expect him to win if he doesn't change the argument?!?
How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
TravisT wrote:
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list.Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
@pick6 I agree with you that no ones wants toked up athletes on the race course but you have to take a commen sense approach to this as well. The banned list and the associated rules are directed at the elite athletes. The only person dumb enough or uncaring about their performance to be smoking a bowl on race morning isn't someone who is ever going to be subject to one of these tests. It's just a morality play to have it on the list. I think pot is disgusting but I find banning something just because somebody finds it wrong based on their own belief set just as bad.
Which is why I say we ask WADA to remove anything that is not a PED; legal, or illegal. And that then any drug; legal, or illegal that's effects/side effects make racing unsafe to a Safety List that allows automatic DQ from the race at any time before, during, or after. IF a RD see's someone they think is visibly risking the safety of themselves or other racers, they should have binding rules to support them in removing that racer that doesnt just amount to their discretion. I dont want some BOP getting fired for toking up heavy with his buds the night before races, but I also dont want him racing with impaired ractions either (and Ive seen friends hit the bowl hard and go to school the next day still a mess. Not my thing but I saw it).
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [BLeP]
[ In reply to ]
BLeP wrote:
TravisT wrote:
Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
But how do you expect him to win if he doesn't change the argument?!?
Oh shit. I forgot about that important rule of debate.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [pick6]
[ In reply to ]
pick6 wrote:
TravisT wrote:
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list.Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
@pick6 I agree with you that no ones wants toked up athletes on the race course but you have to take a commen sense approach to this as well. The banned list and the associated rules are directed at the elite athletes. The only person dumb enough or uncaring about their performance to be smoking a bowl on race morning isn't someone who is ever going to be subject to one of these tests. It's just a morality play to have it on the list. I think pot is disgusting but I find banning something just because somebody finds it wrong based on their own belief set just as bad.
Which is why I say we ask WADA to remove anything that is not a PED; legal, or illegal. And that then any drug; legal, or illegal that's effects/side effects make racing unsafe to a Safety List that allows automatic DQ from the race at any time before, during, or after. IF a RD see's someone they think is visibly risking the safety of themselves or other racers, they should have binding rules to support them in removing that racer that doesnt just amount to their discretion. I dont want some BOP getting fired for toking up heavy with his buds the night before races, but I also dont want him racing with impaired ractions either (and Ive seen friends hit the bowl hard and go to school the next day still a mess. Not my thing but I saw it).
I might be in trouble there. I tend to start partying after big races and being the lightweight that I am it doesn't take long for me to be threatening other racers with atrocious dance moves.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [orphious]
[ In reply to ]
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list. We should steer the thread back on topic to PEDs tho. This arguement is for another thread..... ; )
I think the pot debate is not the big issue here, but fwiw I agree with you. Insofar as it's illegal as a recreational drug in most countries, and we want our kids to have good role models in their sports stars, it should be on the list of banned substances. But I certainly understand the counter-argument(s).
But if we separate pro testing vs amateur testing, pot becomes even less of an issue because what we need for amateur testing is event organisers to pay USADA to test their events (as Uli did for Gran Fondo NY), and in doing so can request specifically what they want to test for, presumably primarily EPO and certain steroids. This negates the argument by amateur athletes that they shouldn't have to be concerned about pot smoking, because they won't be tested for it. Only the pros would be.
The harder question remains how do we persuade those event organisers to pay USADA to test amateur athletes, and I commend Dan and others on this site for their efforts in this regard. The problem of amateur doping is likely to escalate dramatically in the next few years if nothing is done to combat it, imo.
The question of professional athlete dope testing in triathlon also remains unsatisfactory, but at least there is some testing at all. But clearly, much more can and should be done.
Finally I would say that I agree with Robert on one point only. That is, that it is incredibly hard to catch PED users, and will remain so. But where I wholeheartedly disagree with him is that this is a reason to throw up our hands and give up. I am on the edge of being a Vegas qualifier and so if I work my ass off for months to try to qualify I want to know that I'm not wasting my time because someone else is liberally taking EPO. Fine, they have to live with themselves when they make that decision, including the possible health risks, but that doesn't mean I'm not affected too. But this presents difficulties in the sense that if amateurs know they will only get tested on race weekends, they can take EPO for months in advance of an 'A' race and then turn up 'clean.' And OOC random testing for amateurs is clearly prohibitive from both an expense and ethical perspective. But at least the likelihood of being tested on race weekend (for the elite AGers) may deter some of the potential cheaters.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
Kay Serrar wrote:
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list. We should steer the thread back on topic to PEDs tho. This arguement is for another thread..... ; )
I think the pot debate is not the big issue here, but fwiw I agree with you. Insofar as it's illegal as a recreational drug in most countries, and we want our kids to have good role models in their sports stars, it should be on the list of banned substances. But I certainly understand the counter-argument(s).
But if we separate pro testing vs amateur testing, pot becomes even less of an issue because what we need for amateur testing is event organisers to pay USADA to test their events (as Uli did for Gran Fondo NY), and in doing so can request specifically what they want to test for, presumably primarily EPO and certain steroids. This negates the argument by amateur athletes that they shouldn't have to be concerned about pot smoking, because they won't be tested for it. Only the pros would be.
The harder question remains how do we persuade those event organisers to pay USADA to test amateur athletes, and I commend Dan and others on this site for their efforts in this regard. The problem of amateur doping is likely to escalate dramatically in the next few years if nothing is done to combat it, imo.
The question of professional athlete dope testing in triathlon also remains unsatisfactory, but at least there is some testing at all. But clearly, much more can and should be done.
Finally I would say that I agree with Robert on one point only. That is, that it is incredibly hard to catch PED users, and will remain so. But where I wholeheartedly disagree with him is that this is a reason to throw up our hands and give up. I am on the edge of being a Vegas qualifier and so if I work my ass off for months to try to qualify I want to know that I'm not wasting my time because someone else is liberally taking EPO. Fine, they have to live with themselves when they make that decision, including the possible health risks, but that doesn't mean I'm not affected too. But this presents difficulties in the sense that if amateurs know they will only get tested on race weekends, they can take EPO for months in advance of an 'A' race and then turn up 'clean.' And OOC random testing for amateurs is clearly prohibitive from both an expense and ethical perspective. But at least the likelihood of being tested on race weekend (for the elite AGers) may deter some of the potential cheaters.
This is what I care about. I could honestly care less how, what and when LA doped and who all he pushed around to keep it hidden so he could win his races. The huge amount of money that went into chasing him down could have funded a robust AG testing program for years and removed the entire debate that's going on in another thread of how to pay for AG testing. The news that will shortly come out about LA and others may serve to slow doping in the pro ranks somewhat but I think that ship has already sailed. The current news focus only serves to inform AG'ers of how much these drugs can do for you while highlighting the fact that it is practically impossible to get busted for them.
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Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
Good luck with Vegas, Kay! Hope you make it, but the women's ranks are now highly competitive. Now I don't worry about being chicked, but being grand-chicked. Thankfully, Sister Madonna Buder is single, or I'd have probably been great-grand-chicked. ;)
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
TravisT wrote:
. The news that will shortly come out about LA and others may serve to slow doping in the pro ranks somewhat but I think that ship has already sailed. The current news focus only serves to inform AG'ers of how much these drugs can do for you while highlighting the fact that it is practically impossible to get busted for them.Agreed. This was one of my main takeaways from The Secret Race. That is, how easy it is to take EPO and certain steroids without detection (i.e. how soon afterwards you would show up clean in a dope test). The only reason that guy got busted at GF NY is because he never expected to podium and get tested. If WTC announces that it will test all Vegas and Kona qualifiers, athletes who are taking PEDs will have to be more careful with their timing, but it probably doesn't deter them from taking them in the first place. Depressing and I don't have an answer.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [TravisT]
[ In reply to ]
TravisT wrote:
pick6 wrote:
TravisT wrote:
orphious wrote:
I read that but the arguement is still the same. Its on the banned list so dont do it. I would feel the same way if they put alcohol on the list.Stop trying to change the argument when you are losing. No one is saying "do pot even though it's on the banned list". The discussion was why it shouldn't be on there in the first place.
@pick6 I agree with you that no ones wants toked up athletes on the race course but you have to take a commen sense approach to this as well. The banned list and the associated rules are directed at the elite athletes. The only person dumb enough or uncaring about their performance to be smoking a bowl on race morning isn't someone who is ever going to be subject to one of these tests. It's just a morality play to have it on the list. I think pot is disgusting but I find banning something just because somebody finds it wrong based on their own belief set just as bad.
Which is why I say we ask WADA to remove anything that is not a PED; legal, or illegal. And that then any drug; legal, or illegal that's effects/side effects make racing unsafe to a Safety List that allows automatic DQ from the race at any time before, during, or after. IF a RD see's someone they think is visibly risking the safety of themselves or other racers, they should have binding rules to support them in removing that racer that doesnt just amount to their discretion. I dont want some BOP getting fired for toking up heavy with his buds the night before races, but I also dont want him racing with impaired ractions either (and Ive seen friends hit the bowl hard and go to school the next day still a mess. Not my thing but I saw it).
I might be in trouble there. I tend to start partying after big races and being the lightweight that I am it doesn't take long for me to be threatening other racers with atrocious dance moves.
Oh, I've been there. The fond memories of college; but I meant that you could be DQed after if the RD had proof you were being dangerous leading up to or during the race.
Being dangerous to your personal reputation by looking ridiculous after a race shouldn't be an issue :D
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Robert]
[ In reply to ]
Thanks! My daughter is 9 and hasn't lost a race yet after six or seven triathlons. In her last race she even beat all the 10-11 year old boys and girls... So now I worry about when I'll be 'daughtered' by her! Of course, the truth is I can't wait, assuming she keeps enjoying the sport.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
That's very exciting, I know. My daughter was beating all the boys on her swim team as an 8 year old. Of course, by the time she was 12 they were beating her in all strokes, save breast.
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [iron_mike]
[ In reply to ]
iron_mike wrote:
i still think the case of tiger woods is germane here. the guy had laser surgery done on his (already pretty good) eyes, and became better than 20/20. that kind of acuity is hugely helpful for a golfer (or a baseball player - just ask ted williams). should that be legal? is it 'doping?'
-mike
An excellent question. My personal opinion is that if doping is defined in a reasonable way, then no, that shouldn't be considered doping, because it adds to overall quality of life. But if you were to apply the same principles to it that are currently applied to questions about doping in general, it might very well be construed as doping. As technology continues to develop at an accelerating pace, I think that we'll see more and more issues along those lines. Will triathlon, cycling, and other sports be trying to cling to a twentieth-century technological level that the rest of the world has left behind?
-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [Kay Serrar]
[ In reply to ]
Kay Serrar wrote:
TravisT wrote:
. The news that will shortly come out about LA and others may serve to slow doping in the pro ranks somewhat but I think that ship has already sailed. The current news focus only serves to inform AG'ers of how much these drugs can do for you while highlighting the fact that it is practically impossible to get busted for them.Agreed. This was one of my main takeaways from The Secret Race. That is, how easy it is to take EPO and certain steroids without detection (i.e. how soon afterwards you would show up clean in a dope test). The only reason that guy got busted at GF NY is because he never expected to podium and get tested. If WTC announces that it will test all Vegas and Kona qualifiers, athletes who are taking PEDs will have to be more careful with their timing, but it probably doesn't deter them from taking them in the first place. Depressing and I don't have an answer.
I disagree. Things are changing; WADA has taken over results management of UCIs passport (and any sport with passports as I understand it); EPO tests are improving, and the reduction in speed of ascents year over year in grand tours is indicative of a decrease in doping, even with an increase in aerodynamics and equipment. common fans are raising money to support an unemployed journalist and former cyclist in a lawsuit against the UCI and have raised about 50k in about a week. People are calling for change in UCI leadership. That will make a huge impact if it occurs.
Re: Doping and Anti-Doping [iron_mike]
[ In reply to ]
iron_mike wrote:
i still think the case of tiger woods is germane here. the guy had laser surgery done on his (already pretty good) eyes, and became better than 20/20. that kind of acuity is hugely helpful for a golfer (or a baseball player - just ask ted williams). should that be legal? is it 'doping?'
-mike
You should do more research. His initial LASIK surgery, he was legally blind without contacts/glasses. The second one was to repair the deficiencies that were causing him squinting and headaches, which is common within 7-10 years after the initial correction.
I am very nearsighted (20/200 combined) and I correct to 20/15 with contacts. I suppose I should compete without corrective lenses.
John
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Just replying to the thread in general:
But I've always wondered why there is such a push for amateur drug testing in triathlon and not (from what I can tell, or see) in other participatory sports. For example, running/marathoning... (or maybe there is, or there already is amateur testing, and I just don't know about it. if so feel free to call me out)
Is it because people want to qualify for the world championships so badly, and they want to make sure everyone is clean? What about qualifying for the Boston Marathon? Why is there no push to drug test people who qualify for that? (I know Boston used to be based on qualifying time alone, but in recent years that's changed and there is a competitive element to it)
What makes triathlon so special? 99% of people who enter a triathlon are just there for the fun of it. Just like running. I'm honestly curious as to why we don't see such a big call to action in other sports. Is it solely because of Kona and Vegas? Again, feel free to call me out if I'm way off.
But I've always wondered why there is such a push for amateur drug testing in triathlon and not (from what I can tell, or see) in other participatory sports. For example, running/marathoning... (or maybe there is, or there already is amateur testing, and I just don't know about it. if so feel free to call me out)
Is it because people want to qualify for the world championships so badly, and they want to make sure everyone is clean? What about qualifying for the Boston Marathon? Why is there no push to drug test people who qualify for that? (I know Boston used to be based on qualifying time alone, but in recent years that's changed and there is a competitive element to it)
What makes triathlon so special? 99% of people who enter a triathlon are just there for the fun of it. Just like running. I'm honestly curious as to why we don't see such a big call to action in other sports. Is it solely because of Kona and Vegas? Again, feel free to call me out if I'm way off.