Would you please stop saying no one? There are some of us who are happily willing to give at least a little on either side.

There is something outside of America?

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yes, I am aware that many people believe in some variation of fairness. But what a Wall Street or Fleet Street trader thinks is fair and what I think is fair are two different kettles of fish. V. Putin thinks arming Syria is fair. Iran thinks having a nuclear weapon is fair since Israel has a few. Some Pop Warner leaguers have a very warped view of fairness, IMHO.

Maybe what America needs is to settle on a definition of fairness and then follow it? Good luck with that approach. I think that's what this election is all about.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Honestly, I find the attitude of Robert disheartening. The argument that life isn't fair so who cares about doping is just preposterous.

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http://www.fmcoaching.com / http://elpasotricoaching.wordpress.com

Interesting, I have not seen you give very much.

But to your point Francois knocked me around for a few days a while back and since I was tired of being bludgeoned to death I conceded that much of what he was saying made sense.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

So you have the cynical view that since human nature is fucked up we might as well give up? Thanks for clarifying, now your arguments make sense.

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http://www.fmcoaching.com / http://elpasotricoaching.wordpress.com

Excellent points.

Is one person on this board willing to admit he/she got a TUE for T, EPO, or HGH?

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

But what a Wall Street or Fleet Street trader thinks is fair and what I think is fair are two different kettles of fish

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Isnt that why there is this WADA and USADA standard? So that's what's been accepted as "fair" is it not by world standards, athletes, federations, etc?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Well, good point! (Don't you just hate that? ;) )

The problem is that what is fair was decided by bureacrats and politicians. Does it make sense for MJ to be classified as a PED? Of course not, but the politicians thought it was fair. Do you think it's fair? I think it's idiotic.

When we can vote on what's fair, we will have a very different system, I'm sure. And Dan is doing a bang up job creating the atmosphere where fruitful discussions can occur and changes can be made. I hope most of the people here realize what an enormous asset someone like Dan is to an athletic community. (I'm on the same page as Dan on this general point, but we disagree on the details.)

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I've come around to Mr. Empfield's approach that some changes would be good to the USADA process. I dont neccesarily agree on the specific ones he's pointed out, though if he can offer some facts behind the ones I disagree with, I might be swayed. Further, I agree very much with most of what his initiative is trying to do with anti-doping, Im just very concerned about an industry consortium of vendors who make money off falling records and fast times are the right people to adjudicate and sanction doping offenses.

No process is perfect so conceding this is not a whole lot. Dan's biggest beef with USADA is that they aren't willing to concede this point. I definitely agree on this one.

He who is no longer with us also refused to concede this point.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

I've moved along a similar trajectory myself.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

"Would you please stop saying no one?"

you're right. i apologize.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Surely if you want changes in the anti-doping process petitioning USADA is a waste of time since they are bound to follow the WADA code. A NADA cannot implement stronger doping controls than what is in the WADA code, see for example the British Olympic Association's rule that anyone with a serious doping conviction could not represent Great Britain at the Olympic Games, which was overturned at the CAS as it was non-compliant with the WADA code.

If you want change in the anti-doping process then WADA is where you need to go, in fact I believe they are reviewing the code at the moment.

Hi Dan -

I appreciate your response and I admire your efforts in trying to find the right path through this. There are no easy decisions here. That is what is unfortunate. It would be easy for me to make the call, but that would make me the court of one, and that obviously would not be right. I just wish everyone agreed with me ;)

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Adrian in Vancouver

And as Dan has pointed out, USADA has little or no wiggle room. They are a WADA signatory, they have to follow WADA's rules; the little wiggle room they have is around the specific prosecutorial processes not called out in the code. They don't get to decide which drugs are in scope or out of scope. I'd be happy to concede that some drugs on the list aren't PEDs, and that they could be removed from the list as long as there was a rule added by USAT (and other NGOs across the world) that being under the influence of alcohol or any drug that gives the race director cause to fear for the safety of that racer or other racers can immediately DQ that racer prior to or during the race. I really don't care whatsoever if john Q triathlete tokes up every weekend, or even every day as long as they aren't lining up on race day inhibited, same with alcohol or any other drug that doesn't increase performance. Of course, I dont want them doing that stuff and going out and training, but they're adults and until it endangers me, they can do what they want.

I think they should leave the banned list just the way it is. If Joe Schmoe wants to smoke some reefer well fine but he needs to know there are consquences to smoking and be willing to accept those consequences. Illegal drugs are, wel,l illegal and it doesn't look good in any sport for anyone to come up positive for any drugs performance enhancing or not.

and so ends competitive moutain biking and surfing. they were fun while they lasted.

ditto freestyle skiing.

And just how exactly do those sports end by having illegal substances on a banned list? Don't want to get caught and want to compete? Then don't do illegal drugs. Its really simple. I am guessing there are little to no drug testing in those sports.

So you basically don't believe in a representative democracy?

aaaand.....that effectively kills the thread and makes it LR material.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Does any American believe in representative democracy when it comes to issues they disagree with? BaucusCare, military funding, global warming, tax policy, you name it. The truth, which is supported by ample evidence, is that our representatives are asleep at the switch. At the rate at which our freedoms are being eviscerated by our representatives, it won't be long before our right to vote them out will be taken away. For instance, Obama has presided over the largest increase in wiretapping of US citizens of any President. And he's supposedly a LIBERAL! Good grief, what would the conservatives do? Also, please do not conflate disagreement over a single policy with my views on our republican form of government.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

orphious wrote:

I think they should leave the banned list just the way it is. If Joe Schmoe wants to smoke some reefer well fine but he needs to know there are consquences to smoking and be willing to accept those consequences. Illegal drugs are, wel,l illegal and it doesn't look good in any sport for anyone to come up positive for any drugs performance enhancing or not.

Except WADA's list applies even in countries where the drugs aren't illegal. Go race ITU in the European countries where pot and other drugs are legalized, and think about how careful you have to be not to have some in your system. Visiting whole parts of town might be hard. That's why I can see an issue. I know people see it as morality due to the difference in laws, but there is absolutely a safety component to it.

Leave the illegal drug fight to the government. They are doing such a good job. No need to include it on a banned list that forces it to be included on a test panel that just ups the overall cost.

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Yeah but its AMERICA! The only country that matters.

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