Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products

Feb 8, 18 10:36

Post #1 of 112 (20146 views)

Jim@EROsports wrote an insightful recommendation in a thread about wheels today. He said “Wheel testing is folly without testing multiple combinations of tires and tire pressures. If you can't do all the testing, just buy HED's as they seem to be the least effected by tires.” The broader application is that there are many friction or aerodynamic products that require systematic testing and analysis to determine a best. And, without the ability to holistically test multiple combinations and interactions, it is difficult to know a best choice for someone’s unique situation.

Therefore, it would be great to have a list of products that are the most likely to be the best or close to the best, absent testing. I am curious what products people would suggest. Based on my memory of SF love, here is a starter list. I will edit and update the post based on input.

Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin (on a budget); Giro Aerohead (budget permitting)
Aero Road Helmet: Giro Vanquish ~~S-Works Evade~~
Tires: Continental GP 5000 – These are close to the top aerodynamically, Crr, comfort, and durability
Tubes: Vittoria Latex
Wheels: HED (what Jim said)
Cockpit: Alpha X (my opinion based on aero, adjustability, availability, weight, etc.)
Chain: Premier Ultra Optimized
Chain Lube: Squirt Dry Lube (wax & fastest) & Lilly Lube (dino-lube)
Bottom Bracket: Wheels Manufacturing with angular contact bearings
RD Pulleys: The ones that came on your RD
Front Brakes: Omega X
BTA: XLab Versa 200 (my opinion based on value, mounting flexibility, integrated computer mount)
Computer Mount: Bar Fly (if not using Versa 200 & integrated mount)
Bento: Xlab Stealth Pocket, DSW, or Torhans BentoX based on best bike fit
BTS: Profile Design RML
Tri Suit: De Soto Riviera Flisuit
Wetsuit: De Soto T1

Edit: update for Squirt lube from NFS & Aero road helmet; change from Evade to Vanquish; De Soto wetsuit; Wheels mfg BB; clarified Front Brakes; added computer mount; added dino-lube alternate; added Aerohead budget permitting; added Bento; Lily Lube from RnR Extreme; update for GP5K tires

Last edited by: exxxviii: Feb 13, 20 3:43

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 10:58

Post #2 of 112 (20060 views)

That looks like a solid list. Maybe three that I would question:

exxxviii wrote:

Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin

Why not the Giro Aerohead? Isn't this supposed to be a helmet that often tests best on riders but rarely (if ever) tests poorly and is tolerant of riders who don't maintain a perfect position throughout?

exxxviii wrote:

Tires: GP4000SII – These are close to the top aerodynamically, Crr, comfort, and durability

I tend to agree, this is the safer choice, but I would add the Corsa Speed as an option - lower Crr but at the price of lower durability (unless you run them tubeless with sealant). Admittedly we don't know how much if any the Corsa Speed loses out to the "magic aero" properties of a new GP4000SII, but it seems like another viable option, particularly if you are running tubeless (Continental does not yet offer tubeless BTW).

exxxviii wrote:

Chain Lube: NFS or Silca NFS-Pro

Is this stuff measurably better than Squirt? Maybe there is data out there, I just don't recall.

Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

Last edited by: refthimos: Feb 8, 18 12:02

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [refthimos] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:05

Post #3 of 112 (20009 views)

How about aero road helmet? I rmb seeing Jim saying evade and the new giro vanquish testing pretty well on most people.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:23

Post #4 of 112 (19920 views)

exxxviii wrote:

Jim@EROsports wrote an insightful recommendation in a thread about wheels today. He said “Wheel testing is folly without testing multiple combinations of tires and tire pressures. If you can't do all the testing, just buy HED's as they seem to be the least effected by tires.” The broader application is that there are many friction or aerodynamic products that require systematic testing and analysis to determine a best. And, without the ability to holistically test multiple combinations and interactions, it is difficult to know a best choice for someone’s unique situation.

Therefore, it would be great to have a list of products that are the most likely to be the best or close to the best, absent testing. I am curious what products people would suggest. Based on my memory of SF love, here is a starter list. I will edit and update the post based on input.

Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin
Tires: GP4000SII – These are close to the top aerodynamically, Crr, comfort, and durability
Tubes: Vittoria Latex
Wheels: HED (what Jim said)
Cockpit: Alpha X (my opinion based on aero, adjustability, availability, weight, etc.)
Chain: Premier Ultra Optimized
Chain Lube: NFS or Silca NFS-Pro
Bottom Bracket: N/A
RD Pulleys: N/A
Brakes: Omega X
BTA: XLab Versa 200 (my opinion based on value, mounting flexibility, integrated computer)
BTS: Profile Design RML
Tri Suit: De Soto Riviera Flisuit
Wetsuit: I have no clue

that's quite the xmas list.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:27

Post #5 of 112 (19890 views)

exxxviii wrote:

Chain Lube: NFS or Silca NFS-Pro

Why NFS instead of Rock n Roll Extreme?

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:30

Post #6 of 112 (19875 views)

Not very good suggestions for gravel racing.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [refthimos] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:41

Post #7 of 112 (19804 views)

refthimos wrote:

Why not the Giro Aerohead? Isn't this supposed to be a helmet that often tests best on riders but rarely (if ever) tests poorly and is tolerant of riders who don't maintain a perfect position throughout?

Great question. That is part of my motivation for this. I have a Javelin that was only like $80. The Aerohead is $200 - $250, depending on the style and sale. The Aerohead is about 3x the cost of a Javelin or Advantage 2. But, if the Aerohead lands unequivocally on top in the public opinion, I will probably buy one and dump my Javelin.

refthimos wrote:

Is this stuff measurably better than Squirt?

vjohn wrote:

Why NFS instead of Rock n Roll Extreme?

You are right... I forgot about Squirt. I think that still is the lowest friction chain lube. It does not have the long life of NFS, but that may not be a huge issue either.

@vjohn, I currently have Rock n Roll, but I thought that was just on the so-so list.

yangster88 wrote:

How about aero road helmet? I rmb seeing Jim saying evade and the new giro vanquish testing pretty well on most people.

Great call, I do not own one, so it did not cross my mind. I will put the Evade on the list since you were first to mention it.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:48

Post #8 of 112 (19755 views)

I am envious of this kind of thinking (and the list looks pretty solid!)

Personally, I'm the guy that reads 400 reviews on what's the best Santoku knife for the kitchen, finally pull the trigger (on an amazing knife that is way nicer than what I need) then immediately get almost debilitating cold sweats wondering if the other ones I looked at are better at slicing tomatoes. I'm like the non-homicidal Patrick Bateman.

(I never use the knife because it's too nice. My wife never uses the knife because it's too sharp.)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 11:50

Post #9 of 112 (19736 views)

exxxviii wrote:

@vjohn, I currently have Rock n Roll, but I thought that was just on the so-so list.

The data I saw (2016) indicated Rock n Roll Extreme (the blue stuff) had the lowest drag of any non-wax lube. The other Rock n Roll products also did pretty well on drag, but Extreme was the best. My personal experience (2 years using it almost exclusively for road, TT, gravel and cyclocross) is that it's also quite durable and does not negatively impact chain life. It tested better than NFS, and is 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

Last edited by: vjohn: Feb 9, 18 12:19

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 12:07

Post #10 of 112 (19635 views)

Groupset? Ultegra d12

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 12:16

Post #11 of 112 (19585 views)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...%20vanquish#p6432741

This is the thread on Jim mentioning the vanquish.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 12:31

Post #12 of 112 (19510 views)

Excel Sports was selling Aeroheads for 125$. The Advantage was very good, but not THAT good.

Rock'n Roll lube turns into grinding paste once it gets a little dirt on it. Squirt or the Premier stuff would be my choice.

You forgot the bike: Speed Concept. Fast, adjustable, storage options, dealer network for parts. UCI or full Tri configurations.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 12:41

Post #13 of 112 (19451 views)

I think the better question in my mind lately has been, "Are people like me taking the fun out of the sport by making athletes over-think everything?" I mean, seriously, at this point we're not talking about large differences anymore. Most of what Triathletes argue over are a few watts that aren't significant to the big picture. Jesus F*&king Christ, just go have some fun together already.

Now, of course, there's this little guy on my right shoulder saying, "What's next in aero gains? Pedals, Seatpost/saddle interface? What is it? Muhaha!"

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [Morelock] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:02

Post #14 of 112 (19338 views)

Morelock wrote:

I am envious of this kind of thinking (and the list looks pretty solid!)

Personally, I'm the guy that reads 400 reviews on what's the best Santoku knife for the kitchen, finally pull the trigger (on an amazing knife that is way nicer than what I need) then immediately get almost debilitating cold sweats wondering if the other ones I looked at are better at slicing tomatoes. I'm like the non-homicidal Patrick Bateman.

(I never use the knife because it's too nice. My wife never uses the knife because it's too sharp.)

I think every triathlete ought to watch this, and it sounds like it'll resonate with you too, bacause I'm exactly the same:

https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice

Basically: When we have one choice, and we deal with it, it sucks and we're unhappy but we externalize the blame: "Well this sucks, why can't *they* do a better job?"

But when there are 20 choice, we think, "Surely, ONE of these must be perfect for me!" So you do a bunch of researching and find one, but it's not perfect. And to be clear, it IS a better widget than in situation A, but now, we internalize the blame. "If there are 20 different widgets, surely ONE of them must be perfect. *I* must have picked the wrong one."

So basically, our quality goes up but our satisfaction goes down. Really fascinating.

I don't mind doing work to find the best-ish item, but now I try to think of it more as a general category. Rather than split hairs between Squirt and the other 3 competitors, I just view them all as "top tier" and just roll with one.

JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:17

Post #15 of 112 (19260 views)

Jim@EROsports wrote:

I think the better question in my mind lately has been, "Are people like me taking the fun out of the sport by making athletes over-think everything?" I mean, seriously, at this point we're not talking about large differences anymore. Most of what Triathletes argue over are a few watts that aren't significant to the big picture. Jesus F*&king Christ, just go have some fun together already.

Now, of course, there's this little guy on my right shoulder saying, "What's next in aero gains? Pedals, Seatpost/saddle interface? What is it? Muhaha!"

I've been coming here over 10 years and I finally found a sig line!!!

And while I admit to having gone to Jim and would do so again in a second when the need arises (best $ spent in triathlon), I am not a Kona contender by any stretch, just like to go out and have fun and buy shiny new shit every couple years.

I think having a standard list of "things that'll probably work for ya" is a great idea.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [refthimos] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:34

Post #16 of 112 (19168 views)

refthimos wrote:

That looks like a solid list. Maybe three that I would question:

exxxviii wrote:

Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin

Why not the Giro Aerohead? Isn't this supposed to be a helmet that often tests best on riders but rarely (if ever) tests poorly and is tolerant of riders who don't maintain a perfect position throughout?

exxxviii wrote:

Tires: GP4000SII – These are close to the top aerodynamically, Crr, comfort, and durability

I tend to agree, this is the safer choice, but I would add the Corsa Speed as an option - lower Crr but at the price of lower durability (unless you run them tubeless with sealant). Admittedly we don't know how much if any the Corsa Speed loses out to the "magic aero" properties of a new GP4000SII, but it seems like another viable option, particularly if you are running tubeless (Continental does not yet offer tubeless BTW).

exxxviii wrote:

Chain Lube: NFS or Silca NFS-Pro

Is this stuff measurably better than Squirt? Maybe there is data out there, I just don't recall.

this shows the challenge of the otherwise great concept behind this list - everyone's situation is different.not just in the "depending on your position helmet A may or may not be faster than B" way, but in budget and priorities eg tyres some prefer the reliability of the Gp4K whereas others prefer the speed of the SS/CS.
most items need to have a few "best on a budget" vs "best overall" type distinctions, just without taking it too far and ending up another typical ST debate over the absolute margins (which is fine but we already have plenty of those)

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [pk1] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:41

Post #17 of 112 (19140 views)

I don't think you can argue with the Giro Advantage II... it's $25 on eBay and fast on everyone.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [vjohn] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:45

Post #18 of 112 (19123 views)

vjohn wrote:

The data I saw (2016) indicated Rock n Roll Extreme (the blue stuff) had the lowest drag of any non-wax lube.

Cool, I did not know that. I have had Rock & Roll Gold for 2 years and no complaints at all. I have just read about others since that seem to have more vocal love here.

In the data you saw, RnR Extreme was the best oil-based lube, and I presume that Squirt was the best paraffin-based lube (and best overall); where best = lowest friction?

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:46

Post #19 of 112 (19116 views)

Join a good Masters Swim program. No, you cannot be a better swimmer on your own.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 13:54

Post #20 of 112 (19073 views)

exxxviii wrote:

vjohn wrote:

The data I saw (2016) indicated Rock n Roll Extreme (the blue stuff) had the lowest drag of any non-wax lube.

Cool, I did not know that. I have had Rock & Roll Gold for 2 years and no complaints at all. I have just read about others since that seem to have more vocal love here.

In the data you saw, RnR Extreme was the best oil-based lube, and I presume that Squirt was the best paraffin-based lube (and best overall); where best = lowest friction?

Yes, that's the data I saw. I used Gold myself for a while after the first iteration of chain lube data came out and was happy with it, then switched to Extreme when the 2016 data came out showing Extreme being lower friction.

I lived through the 90's and used White Lightning for years, so I stick with the petroleum-based lubes over the wax lubes.

Last edited by: vjohn: Feb 9, 18 12:20

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]

BrentwoodTriGuy

Feb 8, 18 14:16

Post #21 of 112 (18988 views)

Jim@EROsports wrote:

I think the better question in my mind lately has been, "Are people like me taking the fun out of the sport by making athletes over-think everything?" I mean, seriously, at this point we're not talking about large differences anymore. Most of what Triathletes argue over are a few watts that aren't significant to the big picture. Jesus F*&king Christ, just go have some fun together already.

Now, of course, there's this little guy on my right shoulder saying, "What's next in aero gains? Pedals, Seatpost/saddle interface? What is it? Muhaha!"

I just bought my dream road bike. A Trek Emonda SLR. I finally road it today up my favorite local climb, Mandeville Canyon. I stomped up at my typical 80-85% FTP, takes about 24 minutes, and wouldn't you know it, I went the same pace as last week when I was on an aluminum Trek 2.1 with 105 groupset.

Not only did I drop POUNDS of weight from my old bike but I also dropped my stem by 35.4mm!!

And again... I went the SAME watts and SAME pace.

And no.. I don't care because the bike is fun to ride... and it's pretty :)

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [justinhorne] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 14:32

Post #22 of 112 (18931 views)

that's a solid watch! Interesting stuff.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 16:25

Post #23 of 112 (18741 views)

Nice shipping list :)

How about additionally:

Frameset: ? Cervelo something I'm guessing
Crankset: shorter ones than came on your bike.
Bike fit, swim stroke analysis: slowtwitch trial by video.

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 16:32

Post #24 of 112 (18721 views)

Bottom Bracket: Whatever bracket fits your bike from Wheels Manufacturing with angular contact bearings.
Wetsuit: DeSoto T1

Edit to add:
RD Pulleys: The ones that came on your RD.

Last edited by: nickwhite: Feb 8, 18 16:33

Re: Don’t Overthink: Just Buy These Products [yangster88] [ In reply to ]

Feb 8, 18 16:34

Post #25 of 112 (18717 views)

yangster88 wrote:

This is the thread on Jim mentioning the vanquish.

I’ll update to the Vanquish based on this.

grumpier.mike wrote:

Squirt or the Premier stuff would be my choice.

I just bought a bottle of Premier lube thanks to this thread. (It will go nicely with my new Premier chain that is already in the mail.)

And I saw that Aerohead sale. But they did not have my size in a color I could live with.

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