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Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics
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It's no secret, triathletes are renowned for spending huge amounts of time and effort dialing in their bikes in search of the perfect ride. All manner of frames, components and wheels are tirelessly investigated for what will hopefully yield the ideal bike setup.

When considering the myriad options out there, the greatest emphasis is placed on bike fit and optimal positioning. Diamondback's Custom Studio is perhaps the latest example in fit targeting, and central to this is ensuring the ability to pedal both comfortably and sustainably for the duration of any event. No bike is worth the investment if it doesn’t allow the rider to maximize his or her power output, so fit is crucial.

But part of proper bike fit also plays into aerodynamics. Besides gravity, wind resistance is the biggest force that triathletes need to overcome on the bike. Millions of dollars have been spent researching, developing and marketing the aerodynamic properties of cycling gear. It came of age a number of years ago with the advent of the so called ‘Superbikes’, those highly stylized, integrated machines that all claimed to offer the user the best overall aerodynamic performance for any given wind condition.


Rachel McBride dials in her bike before heading to Cozumel

This year we’ve seen the evolution of the Superbike, one that considers not only aerodynamics and storage options, but also something that has taken a backseat to economizing forward momentum, and that is braking. The introduction of disc braking to the world of triathlon is now the talk of the industry, and as with other cycling segments, there’s an amount of doubt and reluctance in the marketplace.

All things being equal, no one seems to question the effectiveness of disc brakes on the whole. The skepticism comes to the fore when the topic of aerodynamics is raised, and many assume that good old-fashioned rim brake bikes must be faster because manufacturers have to date spent considerable efforts to hide brake calipers from the wind.


Hiding rim brake calipers helps, but it is not the aerodynamic end-all

While it may be true that rim brake calipers have been tucked into leeward positions on many bikes in an attempt to minimize drag, rim braking still brings with it undeniable aerodynamic limitations when considering one of the most important aspects of the bike—the wheels.


Old Reynolds rim brake profile with flat brake track vs new, aerodynamically superior disc brake rim

Rim brakes rely on the sidewall of the rim to provide a surface for the pads to engage when a rider pulls on the levers. This constrains both the shape and dimensions to which the rim can be constructed in order to facilitate proper brake function, something already hampered in many cases by sub-optimal, proprietary brake designs.

Disc brakes remove the limits on rim construction because there is no need to incorporate a brake track. Removing the constraints mandated by rim brake tracks opens the door to creating entirely new rim shapes. Throwing out the old playbook grants designers and engineers a blank slate on which they can draw however they chose in seeking to improve airflow management and explore new relationships between drag and lift.

But given the bulky nature of current disc brake calipers and the surface of the rotors themselves, some question whether aerodynamic gains at the rim are erased by the addition of new components. Early testing reveals that there is aerodynamic parity between rim and disc brake bike systems. The improved rim shapes are effectively able to offset the increased drag of the disc brakes themselves, and in some instances out perform rim brakes in testing at certain apparent wind angles. And this is before frame and brake manufacturers have been able to develop true, aerodynamically optimized systems.


Reynolds new AERO wheels improve lift/drag ratios and crosswind handling over previous rim brake models

So while it’s still early days for disc brakes in triathlon, it’s clear that this is a topic that will see exhaustive testing and analysis in the coming months and years. But in spite of the hair-splitting aerodynamic question, the reality is that disc brakes simply work better than rim brakes, and stand to improve overall triathlon bike safety and performance. They are reliable in all conditions and offer modulation far beyond any rim brake. Mountain biking made the switch years ago, cyclocross is in transition now, and the pro road peloton will complete its migration by 2018 after clearing its political hurdles. Triathlon tends to span technology gaps far quicker than other cycling disciplines, and disc braking is set to be the next bridge crossed.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Reynolds Wheels] [ In reply to ]
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"Early testing reveals that there is aerodynamic parity between rim and disc brake bike systems."

i am breaking out the popcorn, waiting to see who is the first one to post a popcorn video. and which one. i'm betting it's the michael jackson one. i think that's my favorite.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Reynolds Wheels] [ In reply to ]
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Tee up the "I don't need better brakes in a tri" crowd.
But these bikes also need to be ridden in all normal conditions on the road for training.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Early testing reveals that there is aerodynamic parity between rim and disc brake bike systems."

i am breaking out the popcorn, waiting to see who is the first one to post a popcorn video. and which one. i'm betting it's the michael jackson one. i think that's my favorite.


There haven't been too many popcorn memes as of late if I recall, I don't know what that is about, but if I had to BET, give me BryanD, although I believe he is East Coast and may already be asleep. Who you got Slowman in this one?

Edited, apparently, I already lost.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Dec 8, 16 18:10
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Reynolds Wheels] [ In reply to ]
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This was a bold move, and I respect that. Hope you have the time to babysit whatever happens. Which is obviously going to be open, frank, and considerate discourse on the subject of disc vs rim brakes.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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"Tee up the "I don't need better brakes in a tri" crowd."

i'm disappointed they're not here yet. i'm going to go find pubes and tom a. and get their asses over here.

but, all joking aside, this is what i've been saying for a couple of years:

The improved rim shapes are effectively able to offset the increased drag of the disc brakes themselves, and in some instances out perform rim brakes in testing at certain apparent wind angles. And this is before frame and brake manufacturers have been able to develop true, aerodynamically optimized systems.

i'm not a wheel maker, just, i've been asking. not projecting, predicting, just asking: is there something you can do to the front of the bike - fork, wheel, frame - that's different if you don't need to contemplate rim braking? i don't know what it is. if anything. just asking!

this is why i've been saying that it's possible that there's some value in disc brakes for tri bikes, and that they have a longer runway of optimization in front of them, specifically for this reason. now, i don't know what reynolds did to optimize the rim. i'm eager to see.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Tee up the "I don't need better brakes in a tri" crowd.
But these bikes also need to be ridden in all normal conditions on the road for training.
There are two races alone in NZ that I do where we descend at speeds in excess of 70kph. I'd welcome better brakes on my TT bike in those races.

In Europe IM Wales and Nice both have decent climbs and descents. Again better brakes would be welcome - especially in Wales given the time of year and potential for rain.

I ride:
Cervelo - P-Series/R3
GT - Sensor Carbon Expert

Supporters - Flo Cycling, Mount Bikes
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Tee up the "I don't need better brakes in a tri" crowd."

i'm disappointed they're not here yet. i'm going to go find pubes and tom a. and get their asses over here.

but, all joking aside, this is what i've been saying for a couple of years:

The improved rim shapes are effectively able to offset the increased drag of the disc brakes themselves, and in some instances out perform rim brakes in testing at certain apparent wind angles. And this is before frame and brake manufacturers have been able to develop true, aerodynamically optimized systems.

i'm not a wheel maker, just, i've been asking. not projecting, predicting, just asking: is there something you can do to the front of the bike - fork, wheel, frame - that's different if you don't need to contemplate rim braking? i don't know what it is. if anything. just asking!

this is why i've been saying that it's possible that there's some value in disc brakes for tri bikes, and that they have a longer runway of optimization in front of them, specifically for this reason. now, i don't know what reynolds did to optimize the rim. i'm eager to see.

Look at the profile shown in the post. Angled and or curved rim where the normal brake track would exist.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Reynolds Wheels] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah so I read your series in its entirety and considered posting it here, but I didn't want to help grant additional publicity to the most self serving, factless, and largely fallacious little op ed I've seen since Cannondale's science fiction piece on the front page, which you link to here.

I mean, you don't even attempt to leverage data -- at least others have tried to manipulate us with 'facts'. You just make sweeping pronouncements with no basis in the reality the rest of us live in. Are we supposed to just take your word for it, as if Lew's credibility hasn't been questionable at best for years.

Oddly, the thrust of the piece is about safety and stopping power, which is so ignorant. Let me key you in to a little insight: modulation is the important thing. There's a Trek video out there that can explain it to you and Lew.

And wow -- is this piece condescending or what? You come into the most nuerotic, aerodynamically obsessed forum on earth and talk to us like we don't know fits are important? Which isn't even relevant to this discussion -- independent variables and all that . And thanks for describing how a rim brake actuates, because I have never looked down while cycling. I would say Rob Aguero wrote this, but it actually has punctuation and makes grammatical sense, even while still poorly written (FYI 'myriad' is a word dumb people use instead of 'many').

Here's the irony about you pushing for disc brakes. If and when they triumph, this new environment will actually be worse for you and your peers. The Nextie's of the world will gain market share because braking and brake track composition are no longer a factor, which is the primary difference between, say, Novatec and Enve. That's the only reason I even buy Zipps for my rim brake bikes. So you'll get a boost in the short term and you'll suffer in the long term.

Too bad you aren't publicly traded because I'd sell calls.

Edit: apparently Lew moved on. Doesn't change anything.
Last edited by: PubliusValerius: Dec 8, 16 19:07
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [BayDad] [ In reply to ]
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BayDad wrote:
lyrrad wrote:
Tee up the "I don't need better brakes in a tri" crowd.
But these bikes also need to be ridden in all normal conditions on the road for training.
There are two races alone in NZ that I do where we descend at speeds in excess of 70kph. I'd welcome better brakes on my TT bike in those races.

In Europe IM Wales and Nice both have decent climbs and descents. Again better brakes would be welcome - especially in Wales given the time of year and potential for rain.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had a chance to ride HED JET+ Blacks. Frankly, I just ordered the 6+ 9+ myself for training next year. I have perfectly good set of Roval CLX 64s and Enve 7 8 SES but I am going for the 6+ && 9+ as my training combo and I plan on using the 6+ in the rain if I race. If it is dry I will use either the 64 front or 7, which ever set doesn't sell first, and pair with HED JET+ Disc Black in the rear regardless of dry or rain.

I raced mostly on the HED JET+ Disc this year, and frankly, I had to be careful braking on the rear. It was super easy to lock as my neuro patterns were such from training that I anticipating the typical carbon braking power. I think a lot of people could get better benefits of braking just by avoiding carbon in the first place.


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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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"I didn't want to help grant additional publicity to the most self serving, factless..."

some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. i choose to see the beauty.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
Yeah so I read your series in its entirety and considered posting it here, but I didn't want to help grant additional publicity to the most self serving, factless, and largely fallacious little op ed I've seen since Cannondale's science fiction piece on the front page, which you link to here.

I mean, you don't even attempt to leverage data -- at least others have tried to manipulate us with 'facts'. You just make sweeping pronouncements with no basis in the reality the rest of us live in. Are we supposed to just take your word for it, as if Lew's credibility hasn't been questionable at best for years.

Oddly, the thrust of the piece is about safety and stopping power, which is so ignorant. Let me key you in to a little insight: modulation is the important thing. There's a Trek video out there that can explain it to you and Lew.

And wow -- is this piece condescending or what? You come into the most nuerotic, aerodynamically obsessed forum on earth and talk to us like we don't know fits are important? Which isn't even relevant to this discussion -- independent variables and all that . And thanks for describing how a rim brake actuates, because I have never looked down while cycling. I would say Rob Aguero wrote this, but it actually has punctuation and makes grammatical sense, even while still poorly written (FYI 'myriad' is a word dumb people use instead of 'many').

Here's the irony about you pushing for disc brakes. If and when they triumph, this new environment will actually be worse for you and your peers. The Nextie's of the world will gain market share because braking and brake track composition are no longer a factor, which is the primary difference between, say, Novatec and Enve. That's the only reason I even buy Zipps for my rim brake bikes. So you'll get a boost in the short term and you'll suffer in the long term.

Too bad you aren't publicly traded because I'd sell calls.

You do know that Paul Lew is at Edco wheels now don't you.......
But I do agree with you that disc brakes will make life hard for high end wheel guys as cheaper rims only need to be the same shape as defunct patents and not be too heavy.
Other than that, you are starting to come across as a bit of a whacko......
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PV wrote:

Here's the irony about you pushing for disc brakes. If and when they triumph, this new environment will actually be worse for you and your peers. The Nextie's of the world will gain market share because braking and brake track composition are no longer a factor, which is the primary difference between, say, Novatec and Enve. That's the only reason I even buy Zipps for my rim brake bikes. So you'll get a boost in the short term and you'll suffer in the long term.

That is actually a very interesting point. Most of the "don't buy Chinese" attitude was/is based off poor brake track quality/performance...
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
You do know that Paul Lew is at Edco wheels now don't you.......

No, I obviously didn't. I haven't paid Reynolds much of a thought since I made the mistake of buying a terrible XC wheelset from them.

I'm not going to correct my post. I'm allowed to be wrong.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
This was a bold move, and I respect that. Hope you have the time to babysit whatever happens. Which is obviously going to be open, frank, and considerate discourse on the subject of disc vs rim brakes.


Oh c'mon, considering who the OP is, personal attacks and misinformed ranting is the order of the day.

Edit to say that I did not intend any malice to the OP, it's just that once Pubes come onboard and took over the thread, My brain assumed it to be his thread and therefore the OP.

Apologies to Reynolds Wheels.
Last edited by: lyrrad: Dec 8, 16 19:03
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
lyrrad wrote:
You do know that Paul Lew is at Edco wheels now don't you.......


No, I obviously didn't. I haven't paid Reynolds much of a thought since I made the mistake of buying a terrible XC wheelset from them.

I'm not going to correct my post. I'm allowed to be wrong.

I happen to own a very reliable Reynolds XC wheelset.
But I still don't think their second and third tier road wheels are up to the braking task though, not heat wise.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Early testing reveals that there is aerodynamic parity between rim and disc brake bike systems."

i am breaking out the popcorn, waiting to see who is the first one to post a popcorn video. and which one. i'm betting it's the michael jackson one. i think that's my favorite.



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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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On the last point we can agree. Which lends credence to the point about the Nexties and Novatecs and Williams' (Irwin's really) of the world eating Reynolds' lunch in this aero wheel space if and when the movement to disc brakes occurs in triathlon. Why would I buy Reynolds? I highly doubt they can make a faster rim. Williams/Irwin has shown they are as fast as Zipps.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"I didn't want to help grant additional publicity to the most self serving, factless..."

some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. i choose to see the beauty.
Like this?


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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. i choose to see the beauty.

Like this?


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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
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"Like this?"

you guessed 'er chester

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [Reynolds Wheels] [ In reply to ]
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First of all there are many rim brake wheels that incorporate an angled brake track. Perhaps not to the extent shown in the disc brake profile but it is a design component in current use. Second, I don't see why shaped rim brake pads couldn't be developed to work with a more highly angled brake track. Perhaps I'm missing something but most manufacturers already require use of their own pads for warranty purposes so that seems like something that would be reasonable to implement.

Also agreed that PV makes a very good point about the rise of low cost rims when brake track performance is no longer in question. Perhaps we should be welcoming disc brakes; we can look forward to $500 no name wheels instead of $2000 whale fin wheels.
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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as dylan thomas wrote:

rage, rage against the dying of the light!
revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night!


or something like that. pubes, i'm relying on your rage here. try to make this an even fight.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Disc Brakes vs Aerodynamics [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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So true.....Bravo!


PubliusValerius wrote:
Slowman wrote:
some people choose to see the ugliness in this world, the disarray. i choose to see the beauty.


Like this?

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