Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon?

Dec 8, 19 14:47

Post #1 of 9 (1494 views)

14 weeks from now I hope to better my time on a local triathlon course by 4-5 minutes to just under 1:20. I'm 62, intermediate fitness, I have 8 hrs to train per week, I am a decent swimmer, good runner, but a mediocre cyclist - so it is all about dropping my cycling time from 46 to 42 minutes since there is very little I'm likely to improve upon in the swim or run.

I believe a big consideration is the cycling topography of my watershed race: 0.5 mile after mounting there is a 400ft climb @ 6-7%, then down the backside of that hill and 2 miles later a 260ft climb @ 7%, then downhill, then flat for a ride distance of 12.7 miles. I think I will need to do 20-21 mph for the last 4 miles (all flat). My previous race effort was flawed because going 20+mph over the last 4 miles debilitated my run.

I've starting doing cycling intervals and I can see that this could make me successful on this course. Getting deeper into the science, it seems there are different interval sets for different training goals. I do have a Garmin 935 and a 520 Edge but I think getting a power meter can't be rationalized so I will be trying 40sec really hard, 20sec easy, 4x per set, 2 sets with a 5' rest between sets.

The 2 climbs of the race take 7 to 10 minutes. So will my 40/20 intervals suit my needs or do I need to more precisely tailor the intervals to the race course? Can a remote coach do this successfully for me? I value the role of a remote coach to see the overall picture and minimize injury risk but could a coach working for me at my level get into course-training strategy? Is it likely I can find a plan that would be so specific? Or should I figure out what heart rate zones I should be training in for what lengths of time and at what intensity on my own? Any books that cover intervals and zone (shorter books I hope) recommended? TIA.

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [lombardi3g] [ In reply to ]

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karlaj

Dec 9, 19 12:28

Post #2 of 9 (1407 views)

I'm no coach, but you seem to have two separate problems:
1. How to train for your event
2. How to pace your specific race

For 2, I'm sure there's folks here who can figure that out with bestbikesplit or some such software.

For 1, Coach/self I imagine you could manage it both ways. I'm sure a good coach could help keep you, but I don't have one to recommend, and that financial commitment is up to you.
I'm not quite sure why any one specific training session would be so beneficial, but I suspect you're overthinking it. You have a pretty tough goal to try and trim off that much time. Yes, you should probably have an idea of training zones, but the simple way is probably (to borrow from BarryP) bike alot. Mostly easy. Sometimes hard.

You may also be able to better setup your bike with smart tire choices and aerodynamic improvements. Dig into the forum history and you'll learn alot about free speed! Good luck -J

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Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [karlaj] [ In reply to ]

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burnthesheep

Dec 9, 19 12:46

Post #3 of 9 (1391 views)

Since this involves swimming, and not duathlon.........I'll pass on the training portion. Other than to say for the du I did as a cyclist.......reverse and normal bricks made a huge difference in being able to pace myself and get the feel down right.

As for pacing in the event, an 1:20 is short enough that sounds like all-out to me. I'd assume this is around a 5k distance run at the end.

Don't treat the bike as a TT, but just a dash under. Then find your legs on the run the first couple hundred yards and embrace the suck of the last 20min or so.

I'm not a runner, so you'd think overbiking would be a huge issue. But not for sprint or short stuff. I went just a few watts under my 40k TT bike pace for the 20 mile bike ride. Then ran fine. Even set a 5k run PR on both runs. Even the second run was that quick.

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [lombardi3g] [ In reply to ]

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gary p

Dec 9, 19 13:10

Post #4 of 9 (1375 views)

While the elevation gains might call for slightly different pacing, it doesn't really alter the training approach. In other words, you don't need to do anything specific to "train for climbing" for this scenario, you just need more sustained power; same as you would for a flat bike leg.

I'm not a coach, but 14 weeks of "40sec really hard, 20sec easy" doesn't seem like what you need, here. If you're somewhat time crunched (it's not clear if you have 8 hours to train on the bike, or 8 hours total), most of your bike work should be near (some a little over, mostly just a little under) your threshold pace. Once a week, some harder intervals, but more like 2 x (4 x (2 min on, 2 min off)). And you should program at least a couple recovery weeks, between now and your race.

Do you have a "dumb" trainer, or are you riding outside? If you have a trainer, and it's in TrainerRoad's supported list, you can do power based training with them even without a power meter. Given your timeline, I'd suggest Mid Volume Sprint Tri Base, Build Phase, and an abbreviated Specialty Phase. It's not very expensive, and I could even give you a referral code for a free first month.PM me if interested.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Last edited by: gary p: Dec 9, 19 13:16

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [lombardi3g] [ In reply to ]

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AKCrafty

Dec 9, 19 13:15

Post #5 of 9 (1370 views)

Try this plan for 1 interval session each week leading to the event:

4 weeks of 8x4minutes at the the highest effort you can maintain for all 8 reps. 2 minutes recovery.
4 weeks of 5x6minutes...same effort/recovery rules
4 weeks of 4x8minutes...same effort/recovery rules
2 weeks of the 40/20 sessions you spoke of.

If you have a HRM, use it. Warm up properly and use it to "pace" your efforts to ensure you are getting the best average for the intervals. By the 4th session of each interval type, you should go in knowing with decent accuracy what HR numbers you can hit.

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [lombardi3g] [ In reply to ]

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Jason N

Dec 9, 19 14:35

Post #6 of 9 (1335 views)

A good way to dial in intervals without a power meter is if you have access to a steady hill. Then instead of watts, you just monitor your overall time it takes you to climb from point A to point B and maybe a few check points in between to ensure you're pacing is somewhat dialed in.

So lets say you have access to a nice hill where your PR is 8 minutes from top to bottom. You want to do 4x10' at a tempo effort, so you just go and ride the hill at a tempo effort the first time, and if it takes you 9:25 to get to the top, then just call it good and change your focus to repeat the hill 3 more times at 9:20-9:30. Did you actually do 4x10'? No, but at least you have a much better target in mind that ensures you're hitting your marks, and you have a frame of reference for the future to gauge improvements. Such as, 8 weeks from now, if you do that same hill 4x, but do them all under 9:10, you know you got stronger...or at least got lighter. Or if you're noticing that your sets are going from 9:25 and fading to 10:30 that you're doing your first sets too hard and need to back off some to keep them more even.

If you want to do 4x5', then instead of going to the top of the hill, pick some landmark and try to get from the bottom of that hill to that landmark in 5 minutes each time. It will take a little time to get the feel for where your landmarks and targets should be for a given interval workout, but it's at least a pretty solid way to measure what you're doing and the progress you're making. And since you haven't reached the top of this hill at 5 minutes, your goal for progress isn't to hit the given land mark faster, but instead to go further and further in the given 5 minute time span.

As far as in race pacing, that's mostly an exercise in dialing in your RPE.

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]

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lombardi3g

Dec 9, 19 22:48

Post #7 of 9 (1271 views)

Great responses, thank you. The most available hill I know of has a slope that varies between 5 and 8% (1.23 miles, my PR is 7:40, balls out). Likely to suit the need?

I think I would go w 4x5’ so that I can survive doing 4 reps. The hill sometimes has a lot of walkers such that going up is fine bc my speed is slow but coming down is dangerous above 15 mph so it may be tough to get back to the starting pt in 2.5’ - how crucial is the easy interval timing? Should the ratio be 2:1?

For a 12.6 race bike leg would u lean towards 4x4’ or 4x6’ intervals given that my target speed would be faster w the 4x4’?

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]

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lennyk

Dec 10, 19 0:24

Post #8 of 9 (1250 views)

Excellent info, subthreshold interval training is proven to work.

If you can find a hill even longer like 15-20mins would be optimal.
You don’t want a hill so steep that you can only find gearing where you are grinding out.

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Re: Deploying cycling INTERVALS: Coach or plan or self-coach for my watershed sprint triathlon? [lombardi3g] [ In reply to ]

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Jason N

Dec 10, 19 9:14

Post #9 of 9 (1193 views)

lombardi3g wrote:

That hill is probably going to work well for intervals less than 9 minutes...which is a good chunk of workouts you'll be doing. As far as the downhill parts, just get down safely and don't worry so much about the rest interval. Would it be ideal to keep the rest short, or if the hill was 2-5 minutes longer...of course. But don't overthink the details. A lot of bike improvements is just about putting in work and managing your overall training load. If everyone else in the world is doing 4x8' at 103% with a 3' rest interval but you're doing 4x6:45 at 105% with a 5' rest interval...it's not really going to matter that much. Both workouts will require a hard effort by the time you're done, and both workouts will require you to wisely choose how you structure your following workouts given the amount of fatigue you'll incur.

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