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Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater?
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Just thought I'd start the drafting thread about Clearwater.
I was watching the coverage and there must have been some major drafting going on!
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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no
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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I was on the course at various places today and the drafting was not the fault of race officials. The athletes had plenty of room to spread out and most did, but a large number chose to draft. There were numerous large draft packs and no excuse for it. The athletes drafting made a conscious decision to do so. It is amazing. What are they trying to prove? As far as I'm concerned, if you get caught drafting even once I put an asterisk on every one or your race results.
Last edited by: imsparticus: Nov 10, 07 9:45
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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As far as I'm concerned, if you get caught drafting even once I put an asterisk on every one or your race results. I
That's a bit much. Many an Ironman world champion has won Kona the same year serving a drafting penalty. (see e.g., Tim Deboom).
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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been racing 20 years, every "big" race....you never "have" to draft...I don't care what the course is like, that is just a cop out.
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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been racing 20 years, every "big" race....you never "have" to draft...I don't care what the course is like, that is just a cop out[/quote]
Since we have been involved for about the saem amout of time in this sport, you must not go to many big races. Sometimes, like clearwater last year, once you got rolled by the pack, there was no where to go. Sometime you choose to draft, sometimes you get swallowed by 30 people.

you are right, you never "have" to draft. but to be competitive OV in the AG field sometimes you may end up ITU style. Sometimes, like clearwater last year for me, where I was in the top 5 AGers on the bike for the first 40k the race was very clean. It's when the peleton caught me that it got congested.

I've talked to jimmy for a long time after last years race, and he was pretty adamant that they were going to make, or try to make, changes that would result in a cleaner race. And that they were addressing issues in the elite field as well.

There are a few issues that need to be addressed for just about every large race:

1. people sign up for races that they know are going to have drafting
2. lots of people sign up for races to do them and could care less about drafting or not
3. RD's allow too many people into a race without enough course
4. Become an official and volunteer your time to help police a race and i think you will see a different side of things or at least talk to the officials (you can even search the forum to get many accounts from officials if you care to) to get their point of view.
5. Rd's don't design enough course to handle the volume of racers.

So before saying things like you don't care (and who knows you may not care) and calling it a cop out, gather the facts then if you must post an opinion.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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just watching the finishers at 5:50 plus,,,,now that is a world champion. please....(no offense intended to 55+ year olds, if not HTFU AND DON'T KID YOURSELF)
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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been racing 20 years, every "big" race....you never "have" to draft...I don't care what the course is like, that is just a cop out[/quote]
Since we have been involved for about the saem amout of time in this sport, you must not go to many big races.
I guess St Anthony's, Wildflower, Hawaii , etc are not big races,,,once again, fuzzy logic for cheaters. Big race, I can cheat. I'm sure if you have a spouse they will appreciate that line of thinking.
Last edited by: trinow: Nov 10, 07 10:33
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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You don't think a course like wildflower with it;s hills or hawaii with it's winds is more selective then clearwater? You said course design has nothing to do with it, but then you appear to contridict yourself.

Maybe you can offer some solutions. What do you do when you are at the front of a race and pack rolls you. Do you back off and get crushed, do you ride with them or what. Instead of whining offer some solutions.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Nov 10, 07 10:29
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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dude, WTF? I can't even follow your logic. Solution=stop cheating
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Maybe you can offer some solutions. What do you do when you are at the front of a race and pack rolls you. Do you back off and get crushed, do you ride with them or what. Instead of whining offer some solutions.

If they "rolled" you, then they were going faster than you, and you just maintain your speed and they pull away as cheaters.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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I am just a newbie but wonder... If drafting is allowed in swimming, why not on the bike?
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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A huge improvement over last year, most of it looked clean to me
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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rroof has it right, sorry man, clearwater, at least last year was a no win for at least the first half no matter what you wanted to do. Comparing it to Hawaii is waaaay off base. I raced last year and I deplore absolutely deplore drafting. About 10 min into clearwater last year I realized actually "racing" that course was pretty much a wash as it was just jammed with racers and you had no where to go. You can't back off of the guy in front of you as that signals to the guy in back you are slowing down and then he passes you, slips behind the guy in front of you (who isn't actually going any faster than you), you have to slide back to give room, someone passes you, repeat, repeat, you get pissed and decide to move up past this damn "pack" and then after passing 20 people all in a line you realize that you'd have to ride all the way to the front of the race to get any clean space out there... you had 2-3 abreast at times, it was nuts

that's just not the race to enter if you hate drafting, either that or only go if you can bike like a monster and just blow by everyone right to the front:)
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [ In reply to ]
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so are you in favor of cheating? I guess I will tee my ball up in every shot next time in golf because there are alot of people out there. I only cheat because they made me.
Last edited by: trinow: Nov 10, 07 12:44
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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god no, not in favor of cheating at all, but at that race in particular it was either cheat or just drop out and watch. seriously, it was ridiculous, after 30min I ended up riding next to another guy I knew behind about 15 others. We just looked at each other, laughed and gave up trying to ride our own pace. Anyways, until I'd done clearwater, I had EXACTLY the same point of view you have right now. I've done Kona, at least 50-60 road tris from smaller sprints to larger 1/2IM type and always based all my "drafters are ALLLLLLL evil" opinions on those. Clearwater changed my opinion on that. BUT, drafting is still cheating. I cheated at clearwater last year, for about half the bike course I cheated, or maybe you can say "a victim of circumstances beyond rider control" or some bullsh*t like that but as Slowman even admitted on certain courses you're just stuck...

I have a bunch of friends doing IM Brazil next year and it's so tempting. Problem is I know the course often ends up being a draft fest and I really don't think I want to go there and just be frustrated the whole bike leg so I think it's off the list. Like monty said, pick the races that offer you what you want. I'm sticking to hillier, mass start races personally as it helps to get rid of the whole drafting and bike traffic problem. I had several friends who qualified for Clearwater this year and all opted out after reading race reviews. Most of them registered for races like Wildflower or half Vineman instead.
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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shouldn't you be out hunting?

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Although certain considerations like course design, draft marshals, can obviously have an effect on the ease and volume of cheating, I think the simple truth is that people are going to cheat no matter what, and there is just no way to prevent all of it. It's part of human nature to look for an advantage, whether it is "allowed" or not, and as we've seen, there are a lot of people who don't care if they're cheating or not. It's not just triathlon, it's not just cycling, it's every sport that we play, and it's pervasive in just about every other facet of our lives as well.

Since there really is no way you can stop other people from cheating if they are determined to do it, you are left with a choice; do you cheat as well, in an effort to level the playing field, or do you accept the fact that these people are going to have an unfair advantage over you and race your own clean race anyway?
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [ In reply to ]
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clear and simple - especially on this course today with the spacing and order of the wave starts - if you were drafting, it was by your own choice. period.
i saw a few rather large groups go by today. there was plenty of open space ahead and a lot of space behind.

no blame for today's drafting (which wasn't all that much, really) can be placed on the layout of the course, an excessive number of athletes on the course, or inattentive race officials.

race officials did as much as can be expected.

steelhead was another story all together.

king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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and he was pretty adamant that they were going to make, or try to make, changes that would result in a cleaner race.

they did a pretty good job of it too. [no sarcasm intended]


king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sc3826] [ In reply to ]
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It was a tough ride today if you went solo. I thought the wind was blowing pretty well on a few of the sections. I got rolled 7 times by some fairly large packs and just sat up and let the cheaters go by. You either join them or hold on to your integrity, I choose the later.

Will I do Clearwater again? I keep hoping WTC will do something but their record speaks for itself. The info they keep spilling out about cleaning up the race is just lip service. As far as a product rating I give the town of Clearwater and all the volunteers a 10 out of 10 but WTC 1 out of 10.

Jim
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [ In reply to ]
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I started in the last wave, and must have passed a few hundred people on the bike. The drafting was pretty bad in spots. It varied from just general congestion, to blantant draft packs where people were fighting for wheels, and groups of 2 or 3 all in a paceline. It was pretty annoying, but a course like this is so flat that I dont think there is any way to stop it. Plus, I didnt see a single draft marshal out there. I made an effort to ride clean (plus I was feeling good, and was going a lot faster than most I came upon) but there were times when the course was so narrow that the draft packs clogged the whole road and you just couldnt get by. It was a fast course, and I enjoyed riding at terminal velocity the whole time, but I dont think its the best course for a "world championship." Its simply not hard enough to spread people out and have the best people winning. I dont know how it went down in the pro ranks, I am geussing a bit less drafting due to a wide open course, but the AG race wasnt very clean. My race was not particularly clean on the run, as I must have swallowed too much salt water and puked a few times.

Still, props to Andy Potts, 3:42 is ridiculous.
Last edited by: Lavery: Nov 10, 07 14:34
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [CHopkins] [ In reply to ]
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, I think the simple truth is that people are going to cheat no matter what, and there is just no way to prevent all of it. It's part of human nature to look for an advantage, whether it is "allowed" or not,
once again, i'm sure your spouse would agree....
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Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [ In reply to ]
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I did Clearwater last year and you're right. You either let the cheaters go or you join them. I chose to let them go, I'm sorry to hear that you chose to cheat.
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