Wow. Good on him.

I was an irrelevant member of Columbia's XC and track team for 3 semesters before deciding running wasn't for me anymore. Aside from the crippling student debt, I really enjoyed my experience and honestly I thought NYC was an awesome place to train. The Ivies also have a fantastic running scene (when schools aren't cutting the teams of course). Ivy XC champs are an absolute blast and it was always neat being part of one of the few decently good teams at an otherwise athletically mediocre school. It's still not quite the Pac-12 or ACC as far as depth goes, but the Ivies do consistently have nationally ranked XC teams.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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Wow nice - Columbia is a great school.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

I worked with a number of student athletes at University of Miami including distance runners. At the same time my brother was running DIII at a very small college. I would say the caliber and quality of the programs were similar on the men's side and if anything the DIII program offered more support. On the women's side of things was a different animal because UM had money and scholarships for the women that no DIII program can offer.

I don't think this point of comparison is unusual. There are a lot of DI schools that have little to no support for men's distance running. Being a student athlete is also really hard and I saw a lot of burn out in talented kids who needed a bit more support that what the system was ready to provide. I would strongly recommend looking at the running program as only a small part of the overall school equation. It is ultimately a fun yet very demanding hobby and all other aspects of the university system need to work for your son for him to enjoy the experience. Men's distance running is not football nor is it a women's D1 sport so what he witnessed from his sister is not completely representative.

Clemson is giving up their track & field and cross country programs.

Join a conference that cares.

Northern Arizona
Arkansas
Oregon

DII
Any DII school in Colorado
GVSU in Michigan

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

Congrats on some good starting times for your son.

I had an a couple opportunities to run on scholarship at D1 (middle distance though). However I ended up option for a D3 school as I knew I would do better academically with smaller classrooms. However lookin back I do kind of wish I would have run D1 just to see how things would have went. The coach and program at the school where I went wasn’t a great place for me to develop (but career wise things worked out so the ultimate goal was met)

A few things to think about
- Academics. Good somewhere that allows him to peruse whatever career he is looking for and succeed in the classroom
- Cost. Some schools are really expensive for out of state students (like more than choosing a private school). Going somewhere where he might be able to get money from either academic or athletic scholarships or if there is some sore of ‘waver’ that allows him to pay in state tuition. He might be thankful for this a few years after graduation when it means he has more money in his pockets
- Finding a good coach is paramount. Find someone your son jives well with who is honest and who he feels he can trust
- Related to above, talk to the coaches (head and assistant) about where he might fit on the team, what his strategy is to develop runners, and what his training and strategy is. If it’s a top team that is loaded with talent he might not get much attention ever from the head coach as they are focused on the top 7 guys on the team. But if their are good assistant coaches that might not be a huge deal as he develops.
- Check out the culture of the team. He’ll spend a lot of time with those guys and girls so it’s nice to find a good fit. When I was looking at schools I would do a ‘home stay’ with one of runners on the team when touring the school and what not. Might not be an option given the current pandemic though
- Where would he like running in geographic terms? I’d rather run in a place like Bozeman, Portland, or somewhere in say CO or UT than a place like Florida or at a place with a large urban campus.

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Matt

I would be hesitant to suggest THOSE schools even if it’s an athlete that is raw to xc and busted out a 15:18. Maybe in a year he can go low 14:40’s but I wouldn’t guess 15:18 would get much money or serious talks from those D1 schools you mention.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Two more things...

Have him read Running with the Buffaloes by Chris Lear. The author spent a year with the University of Colorado cross country team and the book is kind of a journal of his year. It has some pretty good insight of what it was like on the team and the coaches strategy with his runners and who would do what races and things like that. Good book overall.

Flo Track’s YouTube channel has a video series (workout week or workout Wednesday) which videos a team during one one their workouts. They are all a few years old but it’s another way to glean a little bit about a program. Here is a link to one from University of Portland

Speaking of UP, I’ve heard nothing but fantastic things about their head coach Rob Conner. He seems to get a lot out of his athletes (they place well in cross country despite being a smaller D1 school) and he seems to really care about his runners remaining in contact with them years after they’ve left. I personally have not met the guy but have heard this from other college coaches and from his former runners who are from this area

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Matt

Someone else has also replied in these terms, but I'll add my 2 cents as a former D1 athlete.

First and foremost - Academics. He should a choose a school where he'd be proud of the degree. For some people that's Ivy or Bust, others small state or private school will do. For me having grown up in the town of one, I liked the appeal of a top 25 public university.

Second - familial feeling from the team/school/location. Coaches are temporary, with tenures not much longer than the average time it takes a student to finish their degree. While non-revenue sports tend to have longer lasting coaches, they can up and leave at anytime for any reason without penalty. Student-athletes do not have the same freedom of movement, so it's important to feel connected to your team, school, etc.

Third - coaching. How have other athletes improved? Are you going to be the best on the team and never get better? Worst on the team and never get attention? Listen to the coaches when they tell you what they see. Do they speak in absolutes? "you WILL do xx" Or do they speak in aspirational tones? "well right now you xx, but we think you could yy, or maybe zz"

Fourth - environment. Both climate and location. Big city? Town and Gown? Hot? Cold? Wet? Close to home? Far from Home?

I don't know a darn thing about running times, but having said all the above - I went to Wisconsin, because it checked my boxes, and I know they have a very strong history in XC and track.

I also know that recruiting timelines are vastly different now than they were 20 years ago. I received some interest toward the end of junior year, took 4 fall senior year recruiting trips and committed in November. I was also on a steep improvement curve and made big jumps soph->junior-> senior. Now it seems like a lot of kids are committing during their junior years.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

If he is really good the Schools will find him.

Your son should watch this interview with Matt McElroy.

Background- he was one of fastest HS runners back in his time, finished 2nd at FL. Ran at N. Arizona.

Especially in regards to your son's progress into the sport, a D1 program that lacks cross training options will likely destroy him. Of course peer pressure and such can cause cross training to go away (see Tony Smorgawicz at Michigan, Tamara Gorman at Minn).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmHODRuU8Bk


(3:40- 6:00 mark)


Of note, he ran his fastest 10k at ncaa champs and swam 5k yard set the morning of the championship event as he was already training ITU his last year of NAU.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

my 2 sons ran the 800 at UCONN and my daughter the 3k / steeple at PENN ST. they had a great time. if you need any information about the recruiting, dont hesitate to lmk.

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Kiwami North America
http://www.kiwamitri.com
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If he left the soccer team to join the XC and track teams, why is he self-coached?

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Thanks for all the great feedback thus far guys!
When I say self-coached, of course he does have his high school coaches but let’s face it, they do a great job but this is not formal coaching. I really can’t afford to pay for coaching at this point in my life and as others have mentioned, school / education is the main focus and if he can do amazing things in the running world ......... icing on the cake!!!

Congrats on your son's time and new found love for XC! I was an incredibly average D1 XC runner who also coached both HS and NJCAA XC/Track twenty years ago. FWIW- I didn't ever hit 15:18 on a legitimate course so your son is clearly on track to run at a D1.

If I were making the decision or guiding my child, I'd look for climate and culture. I would try to ascertain if the coach is adjusting his coaching to the individual vs pushing everyone through the same plan. Look at collective results of the program over the season. Does the team run better at important meets or slide backwards at the end of the year? Ask about the injury rates and types of injuries suffered by the runners. Find out if the runners in the program develop over their stay at the school.

In a nutshell, find a place where your son can have great experiences, develop as an athlete, and grow his love for a healthy active lifestyle.

Good luck to your son on his running career!
Scott

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I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!

A couple of notes on running D1 in the IVYs from my experience:

1. There are no scholarships. Your chances of getting in improve, but it's full freight.

2. Academics come first, period. One of my roommates was a baseball recruit. When he was having some academic issues he hoped the coaches would pull for him. They did pull........him off the team and told him to focus on his studies.
When I had a lab that conflicted with XC practice, the coach would just post the workout in the locker room and we were expected to do it solo when we got out of class (no getting signup preference for non-conflicting lab schedules).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

i can't find any reason not to second your post above, about NAU and any DII school in colorado. i can't imagine why any runner who want to run more than 2 years before burning to a charred crisp would want to run at oregon. but you have more college run credentials than i do, so, i trust your judgment. if it were me, and i was a father of a very good runner, it would be NAU. there'd have to be some overwhelming educational reason for me to recommend some other program.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If you are looking for a great academic school with running to match, check out William and Mary. I went there and swam there as a walk on and I loved it. Everyone I knew on the XC teams had a great time too.

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http://www.savagesentiments.blogspot.com/
http://www.tricoachmartin.com/
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I definitely can't speak on a D1 running level but played D1 baseball and I am sure there should be some crossover in recruiting and making decisions. Also piggy backing on what a lot of others have already said.

-I would say respond to all recruiting mail, emails, text messages, phone calls, etc. Even if its not a school you are interested in you never know of the circumstances or whom they are friends with and could be recruiters or coaches from other schools.
- My high school coaches question always stuck with me. When you get to the visit portion of looking for schools ask him "Can you see your self here if you get injured?" A great question to ask and especially one that happens all too frequent in sports. When you can't practice or compete how are you going to like it there.
-What I wish I did back then too was send out film/stats to all schools that you are interested in that you haven't received anything from. Think of it like marketing himself. None different than applying for jobs that may even be a stretch but you never know. Teams could be looking for something specific he has.
- Totally a preference thing, but one to think about, if he gets a scholarship from a school that may not be on list vs one he wants but gets no money. Obviously everyones circumstances are different, but just a thought.
-Academics...Everyone hates to hear it, including myself in college, but the chances of going pro are slim to none. Playing a sport in college in general is a huge accomplishment. Below are chances of just playing a sport in college. So go with a school that has good academics.
-A lot of people get stuck on the D1 thing. There are plenty of d2 and d3 schools that could and do beat d1 schools (generally lower tier, but still).
-Go where he is wanted. They will spend the most time (generally) and be a key part of the team. Schools are like business and if a kid is on scholarship they want to get the investment back and will put more time in to do that (In my experience).
High School ParticipantsNCAA ParticipantsOverall % HS to NCAA% HS to NCAA Division I% HS to NCAA Division II% HS to NCAA Division IIIMenBaseball482,74036,0117.5%2.2%2.3%2.9%Basketball540,76918,8163.5%1.0%1.0%1.4%Cross Country269,29514,3035.3%1.8%1.4%2.1%Football1,006,01373,7127.3%2.9%1.9%2.5%Golf143,2008,4855.9%2.0%1.6%2.2%Ice Hockey35,2834,32312.3%4.8%0.6%6.8%Lacrosse113,70214,60312.8%3.1%2.5%7.3%Soccer459,07725,4995.6%1.3%1.5%2.7%Swimming136,6389,7997.2%2.8%1.2%3.2%Tennis159,3147,7854.9%1.6%1.0%2.3%Track & Field605,35428,9144.8%1.9%1.2%1.7%Volleyball63,5632,3553.7%0.7%0.7%2.3%Water Polo22,4751,0724.8%2.7%0.8%1.3%Wrestling247,4417,3003.0%1.0%0.8%1.2%

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/

+1 Look for culture and development of athletes, but make sure the school is where he wants to be. A fair number drop the sport, get injured, or burn out at the D1 level.

More curiosity as a lifelong Michiganian who is peripherally aware of cross country - why Grand Valley? Genuine question. It just has never crossed my radar for XC. They have put several people in the NFL and it is generally a growing institution, but that’s about all I know.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Also worth mentioning specifically that he started at Oklahoma State and got broken by the “throw a ton of miles at them and see who handles it” mentality.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I ran D1 at Weber State (same conference as NAU in the Big Sky). I was All conference, All region, shy of All American, but I was OK. My wife was comparatively much more successful but who's keeping track? 8-)

My best advice:

-academics are kind of important. I say kind of because it depends on your potential career path and major. I'm in law school now and that was always the plan so my undergrad didn't mean very much. If your son is in a similar position and planning on a professional degree, I think it matters less as long as he applies himself. Having said that, most XC teams have crazy high GPAs (I think our average GPA on the XC team at Weber was a 3.6) so usually you will be around other dedicated individuals both in and outside the classroom. Unless it's ivy, I don't think it matters very much. Just my two cents.

-Coaching. I think this is the most important aspect if your son genuinely wants to improve and loves the sport. Coaches are trying to sell a program to you and there are plenty of things they will omit when on a visit, phone call, etc. Don't forget that. Be aware and pay attention to how coaches talk about your son and his potential. Understand what type of coach they may be and try to think if that will elevate your son, or if their style will wear him down and make him hate the sport. His college coach is who he will spend a lot of time with and who will help shape him and his habits for better or worse. I was also a transfer student from another D1 school back east and my coach at my first school was awful. I won't name names, but he was terrible. Told me I needed to lose weight, always belittling and making comparisons to his time spent running, etc. Now it's pretty hard to determine what type of coach someone will be from small, "staged" interactions, but ask questions and do your best. I didn't ask enough questions the first time around and it backfired.


What I would do different?

Use all my official visits, ask WAY more questions, and be more introspective about my own needs as an athlete. Tell your son to take the time to understand what helps him perform and what does not. What motivates him and what does not, etc.

A lot of those big programs are just throwing eggs against the wall and the ones that don't break are your all Americans. They have such large volumes of amazing runners they can afford to take that approach. Find a coach and program that you think will be able to understand your son as an athlete and individual and elevate him. Its rare, but attempt to do that.

So, no specific school recommendations just general advice.

But, this is all just like my opinion, man. -The Dude.

I went to SVSU during an era of wild times but we succeeded. Had a handful of solid middle distance and a couple distance guys and I know they are also getting deeper but GV has won a national title in xc on both the men’s side and many national titles in track and XC on the women’s side. They have a solid history.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach