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Countersteering
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this came up in the "help me to descend fast" thread. i'm going to be the guy who pees in the cheerios.

there are 2 or 3 different definitions of countersteering. one is valid. the others? to me, it's like being filled with the holy spirit, or speaking in tongues. are you? are you doing it? is it really a thing? do you feel different when you're doing it? special? thankful? gifted?

here's the one valid definition of countersteering: if you want to turn right, you have to turn left first. you need to get your center of gravity between the wheelbase line you're riding and the line you want to ride. you need to lean in the direction you want to turn, but it's very difficult to simply lean.

the only time i find people doing this is when they're riding in very tight quarters, like in the middle of a peloton, and you get a bit off-balanced, there's another way to go about this, but i'll leave that for now so as not to obfuscate.

other than that, you MUST countersteer. it's a part of steering when you're riding any vehicle with 2 wheels.

that's it. that's one valid description of countersteering. you don't need to think about it. you just do it. you have to do it. you don't consciously do it, and you can't ride without doing it. you're already doing it.

pushing on the opposite handlebar, leaning your bike toward the turn, all these other versions of countersteering, they're not valid. not real. not a thing. otherwise you're going to be trying some exercise, wondering, like speaking in tongues, if you're really "doing it" or not.

tell me why i'm wrong, and why you have the gift i can't seem to discover and so don't acknowledge.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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well the way i've been taught it on the dirt is that you push forwards with the inside hand which initiates the counter-steer (nicely setting you up on the outside of the corner) and thus puts your body weight inside of the bike's axis such that you inherently lean into the turn. you then convert that forwards pressure of the inside hand into downwards pressure to hold the lean and press down on the outside foot to balance this.

not sure which of your categories that fits in but it sure feels good when you get it right
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Countersteering [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
well the way i've been taught it on the dirt is that you push forwards with the inside hand which initiates the counter-steer (nicely setting you up on the outside of the corner) and thus puts your body weight inside of the bike's axis such that you inherently lean into the turn. you then convert that forwards pressure of the inside hand into downwards pressure to hold the lean and press down on the outside foot to balance this.

not sure which of your categories that fits in but it sure feels good when you get it right

Correct - you are "breaking" the line of the gyros (spinning wheels), that cause the bike to stay upright and go in a straight line. This is different than low speed steering (parking lots etc) because the gyroscopic effect is minimal.

These are my terms for it. I had to rail a corner commuting and was getting too close to a curb (tractor beam on it through target fixation).
Anyway by using inside pressure and working the outside pedal, even keeping the frame upright, which was fun, I could nail it flat out.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As I read this, all I can think of is this


Last edited by: Meathead: Jun 13, 16 15:12
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Re: Countersteering [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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let me explain how to counterbreathe. you consciously contract your upper diaphragm while you relax your lower, until the immediate moment when you commence inhaling, at which point you quickly contract your lower diaphram allowing you to take the breath in faster.

this is so much better than the uninitiate, you just, you know, breathe without thinking about it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Please keep my Cheerios out of this.

I didn't read the other thread but I would suggest anyone looking to improve their bike handling skills to practice and if possible ride with someone who is somewhat experienced. It reminds me of one time I was teaching someone how to drive a race line (automobiles) and he was trying to teach me what I was doing wrong based on what I'm guessing is something he read from internet bench racers. Uh, OK. I guess I failed as an instructor as I was unable to correct his misunderstanding. Oh well.

Nanoo Nanoo
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Re: Countersteering [Meathead] [ In reply to ]
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Meathead wrote:
As I read this, all I can think of is this


Awesome. Had the very same thought. The Hudson Hornet for the win!!
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that when descending, it's something you do. It's not necessarily a conscious decision -- you do it. Descending at speed is still something you have to train. It's not just about having the balls to do it, you also have to have the ability to handle the bike through a turn. But countersteering when descending is not something you necessarily have to think about.

That said, I think it's important to know how to steer from the saddle when descending. While in most cases, its instinctual, it's still important, because not every turn when descending is a smooth arc. Sometimes there's debris in the road or you clip a pedal or whatever, and you need to react to it. And while descending a smooth turn may be instinctual, last minute reactions may not. But at high speed, it's with the saddle and not by consciously countersteering.

IN a peloton and in tight spaces, where you hit wheels, have to react to being cut off, etc., countersteering is something you should know.
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Does this answer your question?

http://web.archive.org/...aspx?Lev=2&ID=36

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The Rocket Bike – Counter Intuitive Concepts

A simple and fun experiment that can be performed with a standard bike involves the use of a rocket. The strategy is to affix a small model rocket onto a handlebar to one side. The intent is that the bike will be pushed forward without rider, and the rocket will be ignited by remote means or by a timer or delay of some sort. When a bike is pushed off in a straight running line, and the rocket ignites, a steer torque is applied to the handlebars. The astonishing result is that the bike does not steer in the direction of the steer torque, but rather in the opposite direction. This astounding fact perplexes many onlookers. In essence, the bike turns in the direction opposite to the applied steer torque. This experiment demonstrates conclusively that the bicycle’s dynamic behavior is counter-intuitive from the perspective of handlebar steering actions.

Even skilled and proficient bike riders are often puzzled by the results of this experiment. The explanation lies in the fact that the rocket creates a steer torque which, yes, momentarily turns the handlebars in the direction as pushed by the rocket. This steering action in turn causes the base of the bicycle to steer in that direction. But now the bike has been forced into a lean because the ground contact support points have shifted by steering action or offset to one side, and – a lean away from the steer direction then results. It is this reversed direction lean, combined with the front fork geometry involving head angle, rake, and trail, which overpowers the rocket force and turns the bike’s handlebars into the direction of the lean – and opposite to the direction of the applied rocket torque.

In engineering terms we say that the bicycle exhibits counter-intuitive behavior. We can mathematically say, using the language of systems theoretic principles, that the bicycle exhibits “non-minimum phase behavior.”
The significance of the bicycle’s non-minimum phase behavior is that the bicycle usually does the opposite of what the intuitive mind would and might expect. As an example, if we want to steer right using handlebar actions as opposed to leaning, we actually steer first in the opposite direction, or to the left. Accident studies show that nontrivial numbers of motorcycle deaths occur in the case of less experienced riders – as when an obstacle or danger appears, the intuitive reaction is to steer away. But, in doing so the motorcycle sets up a lean towards the obstacle and the motorcycle invariantly impacts the object – and hence a serious collision results.

The proper emergency steering action is called “counter-steering,” whereby the skilled rider initiates a turn by turning towards the hazard. This action sets up a lean away from the hazard, and thus the rider can thereafter quickly and safely turn away from the hazard as a proper lean has been established. In addition, skilled motorcyclists will combine this action with an upper torso lean away from the hazard, in that sense “intuitive,” so as to as efficiently as possible extricate themselves from the hazardous circumstance.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Countersteering [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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" Descending at speed is still something you have to train."

i'm not saying that descending fast and safely is not a skill. it is. i'm not saying there aren't best practices. there are. i'm saying that this technique called countersteering is like this technique called balancing. you don't have to think about it. you do it unconsciously and if you don't do it you fall. there are valid things to think about when descending. not this.

"IN a peloton and in tight spaces, where you hit wheels, have to react to being cut off, etc., countersteering is something you should know."

see, this is what i don't get. have you ever seen, or yourself executed, that thing where you must lean with your head in a tight peloton in order to keep going straight? this is what happens when you can't countersteer. this is the only balancing maneuver available to you because you can't turn into the rider to the left of you in order to gain your balance and then veer right.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"Does this answer your question?"

i didn't ask a question, but i think the article you referenced establishes my point.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i'm not saying that descending fast and safely is not a skill. it is. i'm not saying there aren't best practices. there are. i'm saying that this technique called countersteering is like this technique called balancing. you don't have to think about it. you do it unconsciously and if you don't do it you fall. there are valid things to think about when descending. not this.

I agree that when descending, you don't have to think about countersteering. Because that's something you instinctually do. But I also think that it's one thing to be able to handle a corner at speed, and it's quite another to know how to deal with that rock in your line while cornering at speed. Countersteering is still something that you don't consciously do at speed, but dealing with the situation is something that needs to be trained. I've found that learning that you steer with your ass helps.

this is the only balancing maneuver available to you because you can't turn into the rider to the left of you in order to gain your balance and then veer right

Countersteering doesn't mean you're turning into the rider to the left in order to veer right. Countersteering isn't just a push forward on the left side to go left, it also involves shifting weight in that directly. But it's something I've definitely done in order to avoid getting my wheel chopped. It's what I've done when rubbing the wheel in front of me. And it's something I've done in order to avoid the car door that has been opened in front of me. But it's not just pushing on the wheel, it's also a body shift at the same time. And it has worked for me.
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Re: Countersteering [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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"Countersteering doesn't mean you're turning into the rider to the left in order to veer right."

this is absolutely the definition of countersteering (or at least one definifion). here's wikipedia. steer left to turn right.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Countersteering doesn't mean you're turning into the rider to the left in order to veer right."

this is absolutely the definition of countersteering (or at least one definifion). here's wikipedia. steer left to turn right.

Pushing the bar with your right hand doesn't mean you turn into the rider to your left.
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Re: Countersteering [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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when i've been in a tight pack and find myself veering left, i need to turn right. there are two ways to do this. first is to countersteer (my definition) which is to steer left to turn right. nothing magical in this. this is breathing. you don't need to practice it or have someone teach it to you. it is the essence of how to ride a bike.

but i can't execute this, because there is a guy next to me, we're bumping elbows. the ONLY way now to not run right into him is to lean my head waaaaaay over to the left and this allows me to steer a very little bit to the right without first veering left.

that's it. those are the 2 ways. no third way! not physically possible!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on how tight the pack is.

If you're riding, either with wheels overlapped or close, and the rider ahead of you jumps over to the point where you think you're wheel might be chopped, a conscious push forward on the bars to countersteer out of the way, coupled with a lean on the saddle in the opposite direction, can work.

Same if your riding next to a line of cars, and you get doored at the last minute. A conscious counter steer coupled with a lean can be your best bet at avoiding the door.

When you're not at speed, I don't think countersteering is instinctual. In fact, I think the gut reaction for many when doored is to steer away from the car and then fall into the door.
Last edited by: AlanShearer: Jun 13, 16 15:54
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Does this answer your question?"

i didn't ask a question, but i think the article you referenced establishes my point.

I guess I'm still trying to figure out what your point is...


Does a person initiate a turn (above a "crawling speed") in one direction by actually rotating the handlebars in the opposite direction? Yes.

Does a person "practiced" at riding a bicycle typically realize that they are doing this when they turn? No. They just do it.

Is that what you're trying to say?

If so, neither of the statements above imply that it's not possible to become a better "turner" by realizing this and taking advantage of it. Want to dive deeper into a turn? Concentrate on driving the inside hand into the apex, since that automatically results in the countersteering action. Don't try to rotate the bars into the turn.

Understanding this action also helps in getting used to touching an overlapped wheel in front of you when riding in a group. Everyone's first reaction is to try to steer away from the contact, which just makes things worse and they go down. "Steering" into the wheel works very well. Trying it at slower speeds on grass is a great bike handling/safety drill.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Countersteering [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"I guess I'm still trying to figure out what your point is..."

the point as in the original post. if you go to the descending thread (there's another thread ongoing right now) there's an admonition to learn how to countersteer. i hear this all the time, learn to countersteer, this skill, like learning how to ride a wheelie. in my opinion there is no special skill to learn here. it's a phantom extra skill that doesn't in fact exist. at least in bicycling.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"I guess I'm still trying to figure out what your point is..."

the point as in the original post. if you go to the descending thread (there's another thread ongoing right now) there's an admonition to learn how to countersteer. i hear this all the time, learn to countersteer, this skill, like learning how to ride a wheelie. in my opinion there is no special skill to learn here. it's a phantom extra skill that doesn't in fact exist. at least in bicycling.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. A lot of folks would disagree with you, including some very skilled cyclists. All due respect, just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"I guess I'm still trying to figure out what your point is..."

the point as in the original post. if you go to the descending thread (there's another thread ongoing right now) there's an admonition to learn how to countersteer. i hear this all the time, learn to countersteer, this skill, like learning how to ride a wheelie. in my opinion there is no special skill to learn here. it's a phantom extra skill that doesn't in fact exist. at least in bicycling.

Yeah...I was having a hard time pulling that out of the first post. Thanks for the more concise version.

That admonition should be "learn how to take advantage of counter steering".

Yes, everyone does it automatically when they learn to ride. However, being AWARE that this is actually happening conveys benefits in "high performance situations due to the non-intuintuitive nature of what's actually happening and how one should best react.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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For me there is a distinct difference in the countersteering that I do all the time (because that's how you ride a bike) and the countersteering that I consciously do when I want to initiate a tighter turn, and for me it comes to 'dropping' the bike into the corner. I learnt to consciously countersteer on a motorbike where you have to shift several hundred kg's from one side to the other in twisty corners so you have to be aggressive and I think that's the difference. It's about the speed with which you go from one side to the other, or the ability to suddenly, and almost instantly, tighten up a turn. Try finding a descent with gentle twisties in and ride down it normally. Mid way through a right hand corner give a sharp push forward and downwards on your right bar, shifting your weight onto that bar, and the bike will 'drop' into the corner and significantly tighten up its cornering line. Just don't be too close to the edge of the road when you do this or you'll end up in the ditch. It's all about being aggressive. I find it very useful on a fast descent where I suddenly realise "Oh s^#t, I've overcooked this and am about to cross the centreline". A sharp push down forward and down on the INSIDE bar will often tighten up your turn sufficiently (which as TomA has posted above, is not what you would consciously expect to do in this situation, adn I think that's the difference).
Last edited by: rmt: Jun 13, 16 16:14
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Re: Countersteering [rmt] [ In reply to ]
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"for me it comes to 'dropping' the bike into the corner"

if i understand you correctly, and what you describe - and i've heard this view espoused - i have a hard time with this. you're saying you lean the bike even more than you lean your body? you're putting the contact patch of the tire even more on edge, are you not?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Countersteering [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what countersteering is supposed to be.

I'm a cat 1. I scoot backwards on my saddle and put as much body weight/pressure to the outside as possible when cornering hard. I can't ever think of a time I have "turned one way to turn another" unless that's simply referring to moving my body weight to the outside.

I have a crit Wednesday night. I might have to really focus on what I'm actually doing and see if it's different than what I'm thinking now. 
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Re: Countersteering [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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"All due respect, just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it doesn't work."

yes, i understand. which is why i likened this to a religious experience that some maintain really does exist. i take your word for it that it's a special thing/knowledge/skill you have/understand/perfect, and i recognize that it might be a "thing" once you're aboard a motorcycle, i just don't know of any truly good bicycle descender who talks or thinks about this. i'm up ahead a few turns while my friends are back there concentrating on countersteering.

but maybe i just need to get born again on it, and then i'll understand it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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