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Re: Correct crank length! [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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I would just sit there and listen in on all you guys holy mackerel what a collection of knowledge. Too bad Sheldon isn't still around I'm sure he would have added many more knowledge nuggets to the cycling industry in the time he's been gone.
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Re: Correct crank length! [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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That's Nick Flyger on the left with Australian Institute of Sport and Cycling Australia (Track Sprint).


RChung wrote:
Last edited by: Bio_McGeek: Jan 31, 16 20:04
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Re: Correct crank length! [Bio_McGeek] [ In reply to ]
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Bio_McGeek wrote:
That's Nick Flyger on the left with Australian Institute of Sport and Cycling Australia (Track Sprint).

I learned a lot listening to the folks at that meeting. Everyone I met there I was thinking, "Woah, I've heard of you."
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Re: Correct crank length! [Bio_McGeek] [ In reply to ]
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Bio_McGeek wrote:
Hello All:
This is a great thread! It has all the information that rational people need. To summarize:
1) crank length does not influence power
2) crank length does not influence efficiency
3) the length of the crank is just one element in the overall gearing between the foot and the rear tire contact patch
4) shorter cranks may allow a person get closer to horizontal torso position which may improve aerodynamics
But this only helps the rational folks. The irrational folks will believe whatever they want to believe and make arguments to defend those beliefs. Kinda like politics; completely irrational.
Cheers
Jim (5'8" 32.5" inseam with 152.5mm cranks on his tt bike)

Hi Jim, great info. I want to learn more, but still want keep this rational. So, based on your research/experience and the body of scientific knowledge that is out there, do you think that (1) and (2) still hold true for extremely short or very tall riders?

Then, when you say that crank length does not influence efficiency and power, do you mean crank length within a particular range? Is there a specific range of crank length that we are talking about? Or, do you mean any cranks, even cranks as short as 50mm long or cranks as long as 500mm long?

Off topic, are you still involved in the active desk project? Or those avail for regular sale yet?

Greg @ dsw

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Re: Correct crank length! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Did you even read Dr. Martin's work?


Last edited by: Nick B: Feb 2, 16 11:25
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Re: Correct crank length! [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, did not, but would like to.

Got a link to some of the studies?

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Re: Correct crank length! [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Edit, meant to respond to "darkspeedworks"


You'll will get a better response from him. If you look at some of the scatter plots there are occasional outliers. The issue with human nature is that we are usually inclined to think we are the 1 in 20 (or 1 in a 100) as opposed to the 19 in 20. Hence every time there is a crank length thread it goes to 5+ pages….up to 10 if Dave chimes in ;-)

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Feb 2, 16 11:35
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Re: Correct crank length! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Nope, did not, but would like to.

Got a link to some of the studies?

Both Tom A. and I posted good links early in this thread.

Original study:
http://www.recumbents.com/...0Cycling%20Power.pdf

Explanation presentation
http://wattagetraining.com/...edalingTechnique.pdf
Last edited by: Nick B: Feb 2, 16 13:49
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Re: Correct crank length! [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
sciguy wrote:
h2ofun wrote:


Sorry, not what I found. I have the gearing. You cannot make up for leverage. And if you are a shorter person, you just have no idea what I am talking about.


Dave you have repeated mentioned that you did not change gearing when you went to shorter cranks and that you were unable to make 300 watts on the Velotron while using the same gearing as with your 220s. So which is it? Did you keep the same gearing or did you change it when going to the 175s? It sounds as if you're telling two different stories.

Hugh


You still are not willing to give you real name or race results. Why not? Results can show if a persons training, equipment is worth anything.

Yep, I kept my gearing at 16. I could not make 300 watts with the 175's, but can with the 200s. My story has not changed.

Again, give us your real name so we can all go look at your race results.


Dave,

What in the world does my name or race results have to do with anything? Do we need the race results from John Cobb, Robert Chung, Andy Francioni, or Jim Martin to trust their ability to understand the science of measuring aerodynamics or cycling mechanics? I've got a BS in Biology from Cornell where I did physiological testing in cycling with Jim Hartshorn, a masters in science from the University of Rochester. You seem to define yourself by your race results and national ranking. Just for grins do a search on your name and "ranking". You brag about it constantly and backhandedly or not so backhandedly put all others down as you're doing in the most recent post. You frequently call others bullies yet you yourself bully every time you put others down by bragging about "kicking their butts" You may enjoy sharing all your personal details with the world but I for one do not.

My concern with you, a supposed engineer by training, is your complete lack of the use of any sort of scientific methodology in your supposed crank length experiment. Even though it's been pointed out to you numerous times that to actually compare different crank lengths you need to use the same gain ratios you've chosen to ignore that incredibly important point and just bulldozed along with "they were terrible for me". You seem to be proud of the fact that you used a 16 cog for testing your max watts with the 220s as well as 175s when you really should have been running about a 20 tooth cog with the 175s. Just for grins, go back and try the 220s with a 12 tooth cog and see how that works out.

So keep bragging about your results and how you'll kick my butt if we raced but please of please consider the science before you pop off as if you're an expert on every topic under the sun.

Rant over,

Hugh


Who a person really is, and there race results says everything to me. To hide behind a keyboard and talk like you are an expert, well, have fun hiding.

Like, holy shit Dave.
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Re: Correct crank length! [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, thanks.
Time to read up.

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Feb 2, 16 14:26
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Re: Correct crank length! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Greg:
In the original study on maximal power I went out of my way to recruit the tallest and shortest riders I could find; 5'4" to 6'4". Even with that range the effect of crank length was only significant at the extreme lengths (120mm and 220mm) and that was less than 5% lower power. For the submaximal study we "only" used a range of 145-195mm and got no effect of crank length at all. So, within the range of 145-195mm I can be pretty confident.
Of course there are extremes that would not work. I initially planned to study up to 245mm but when I did the pilot data on myself I kneed myself in the chest so hard I gave myself whiplash. So I can't advise super long. On the short side, there would like be a point where the muscles shorten too slowly to be efficient and you might end up running into tendon compliance issues. That said, I was just recently looking at the max power data and my own best trial of all the lengths was on the 120mm. I am currently doing some pilot work training with maximal pedaling rates using 95mm. So far my max cadence has been 338rpm. Sorta fun.
Active Desk is more or less on hold. If you have any industry contacts please contact me!
Cheers,
Jim


DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Hi Jim, great info. I want to learn more, but still want keep this rational. So, based on your research/experience and the body of scientific knowledge that is out there, do you think that (1) and (2) still hold true for extremely short or very tall riders?
Then, when you say that crank length does not influence efficiency and power, do you mean crank length within a particular range? Is there a specific range of crank length that we are talking about? Or, do you mean any cranks, even cranks as short as 50mm long or cranks as long as 500mm long?
Off topic, are you still involved in the active desk project? Or those avail for regular sale yet?
Greg @ dsw
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Re: Correct crank length! [Bio_McGeek] [ In reply to ]
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Jim,
With these super short cranks have you had to adopt any change in style, like a more punchy stroke?
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Re: Correct crank length! [Tomato] [ In reply to ]
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Tomato wrote:
Jim,
With these super short cranks have you had to adopt any change in style, like a more punchy stroke?

Not sure which ones you are calling super short. We have papers showing no difference in cycling biomechanics with lengths from 150-190 for maximal and submaximal cycling (See Barratt et al 2011 and there will be a new paper Barrett et al 2016 currently in press).
If you're talking about the 95mm cranks, well, pedaling style really looses its meaning at 300+ rpm. See what I mean here http://vid1035.photobucket.com/...0rpm_zpskjzmzylm.mp4
Cheers,
Jim
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Re: Correct crank length! [Bio_McGeek] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks jim. Do you have data on sustained power as well as peak?
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Re: Correct crank length! [Tomato] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, that's what I meant by submaximal. That paper will come out in Med Sci Sports and Exer later this year.

Tomato wrote:
Thanks jim. Do you have data on sustained power as well as peak?
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