Come in and tell me my saddle is high...

Dec 1, 18 12:26

Post #1 of 25 (5402 views)

After shooting video, photoshopping, and pondering my helmet choice Critique My Helmet Choice I noticed a couple things I didn't like about my fit. 1) my shoulders looked to be very, very low compared to the highest point of my back. 2) my knees were not tracking how I would like them to.

I decided to revisit Dan's recommendations Post #2 of 103 and change my fit to meet his prescriber's numbers.....LOL. Actually, that is not what I did, but it's funny that I came up even higher in the front than what he was prescribing. Anyhow, I also have wanted for a while to pedestal up to get clean air both over and under the bar, but bikes don't really allow me to do this and maintain the drop I was running. So, I threw out all my preconceptions that coming up is slow and I made some changes. Those changes include raising my pads, raising my saddle, and moving it forward.

Current Numbers:

Pad X bop 487mm
Pad X mop 535mm
Pad Y 598mm
Saddle Height 700mm
Saddle Setback 65mm

Interesting thing is I now slot into something that isn't so alien or maybe I don't, but I'm close on this chart to at least almost making it into a box:

I'm actually really liking the current fit, but I guess I am still in the honeymoon phase (I loved all my other positions until I didn't). I shot some video of what this looks like from the front, 3/4, and side views as well as a full profile so that everyone can tell me to lower my saddle. Now, I realize the camera is not in the same position in both videos and this leads to the positions looking different, but they're not. I might be shrugging more in the full profile a bit, but it really is the lens making it look different. Oh, and if you'd rather not opine on my fit, but rather tell me I will be slower I've added a race shot of a lower position.

Bike info:

2011 Felt Da 51
Dash Stage 9 narrow
Rotor 3D+ P2M Classic 155mm
Speed Play Zeros 53mm
110mm 0º rise stem
Bayonet 3 Devox
Alden Carbon 15º Pads/Cups
Zipp EVO 110 Vuka

Last edited by: LAI: Dec 2, 18 6:05

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 13:45

Post #2 of 25 (5316 views)

Saddle is to high!
Drop saddle 5mm and the front end to match.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:08

Post #3 of 25 (5289 views)

maybe move the seat slightly forward to move your ears a bit further forward past your elbows and yes ^ drop the front

Last edited by: Yeti racer: Dec 1, 18 14:10

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:19

Post #4 of 25 (5264 views)

how does the higher stack position *feel* from a power perspective?

I like the amount of reach you've got going on... you look fast.

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Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:34

Post #5 of 25 (5234 views)

I knew you would appreciate the reach. ;)

Power was one of the drivers for the increased stack in addition to the two points I mentioned above. At races and training I could have a good day when low, but they were so erratic I really was left searching for answers (e.g. too long of a drive, too much wine the night before, etc.). As I started raising my front end–I went little by little–I felt more powerful. The "Full Profile" video (I actually took 5 I think) were taken today and were done during ~90% 2x20s. It felt easy pushing the power, but what does take work is holding the shrug. Here I like the Alden-Carbon cups as I can push out with my arms and use them as a bracing point.

To be honest, I never really tried to hold my shoulders in in the past. I'm hoping any negative hit to my CdAm^2 by raising my front is going to be offset by the new shrug and the pedestaled front (i.e. the cleaner front end).

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:40

Post #6 of 25 (5211 views)

Fishbum wrote:

Saddle is to high!
Drop saddle 5mm and the front end to match.

If you clicked through to the "Bike Fit Exercise" thread you will see that I am now 10mm higher for saddle height than I was before, but I also moved the saddle forward to negate some of that. And, I hear you. I am just past the range where I would suggest for an extreme leg extension; however, my pedal stroke looks pretty good and power/fatigue feels pretty good. Need more data.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:44

Post #7 of 25 (5199 views)

So does raising the saddle fix the knee tracking? I’m on the high side as well but my knee tracks much better on the high range.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [EnderWiggan] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:48

Post #8 of 25 (5190 views)

Absolutely! Also, being skinner helps too! Knees really want to avoid the gut. ;)

ETA: there is a ~10lb difference between the two videos.

Last edited by: LAI: Dec 1, 18 14:51

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 14:54

Post #9 of 25 (5170 views)

Haha good point! Maybe that’s why my saddle goes up a few mm during the winter ;)

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 17:05

Post #10 of 25 (5014 views)

I won't tell you your saddle is too high. First off, it doesn't look to high. Second, my saddle is higher than the book says it should be, and it works for me. As with anything, you find out what works through experience.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 17:26

Post #11 of 25 (4981 views)

I think it's a bit too high, mainly from freezing the video and looking at your knee angle at the bottom of the pedal stroke. It's also borne out by your saddle being angled just a couple degrees further down than I'd be comfortable with.

Have you done a hard effort on it yet? I mean like 20-30M at >90% FTP. My sense is this is just a bit too high, and you're not going to notice it until you're fatigued (i.e. - it'll feel good going easy to moderate).

But overall I like your position and how you're approaching this.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [Amateur] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 18:28

Post #12 of 25 (4919 views)

Agreed. I am on the see how it works plan, but feedback is important. I really think I am a bit too high, as I'd love to be ~148º and I am measuring right at 151º. Nevertheless, I think it might work for me and only time will tell.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [vjohn] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 18:34

Post #13 of 25 (4909 views)

I really only am now getting back onto the Time Trial bike. The profile video was efforts at ~90% and it felt like money, but I do need to spend more time in this position as I agree with the sentiment that my leg extension is not where I would like it. I may end up drop the saddle a 5mm and the pads as much.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 18:39

Post #14 of 25 (4898 views)

LAI wrote:

Agreed. I am on the see how it works plan, but feedback is important. I really think I am a bit too high, as I'd love to be ~148º and I am measuring right at 151º. Nevertheless, I think it might work for me and only time will tell.

Right. The feedback I get from my body is ultimately the most valuable feedback. I get low back pain if I'm too low, particularly during/after climbs. It's when I'm climbing that I really appreciate that height.

I had a fit one time and the guy told me point blank: The book says you should be lower, but if it works for you then keep it there.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 18 21:41

Post #15 of 25 (4787 views)

LAI wrote:

Oh, and if you'd rather not opine on my fit, but rather tell me I will be slower I've added a race shot of a lower position.

Good position, good setup, good belly breathing, and good post!

I think you'll be more aero, not less. Keep practicing the turtle and shrug until it becomes natural. Do you have a "before" CdA measurement?

I'd look at lowering the rear and front a bit, but not if it will cause problems.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 1:09

Post #16 of 25 (4711 views)

This bike is drool worthy... Nicely curated!

Secondly, well done on getting your trophies in the shot 😜

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 6:01

Post #17 of 25 (4602 views)

rruff wrote:

Good position, good setup, good belly breathing, and good post!

Thank you, sir!

rruff wrote:

I think you'll be more aero, not less. Keep practicing the turtle and shrug until it becomes natural. Do you have a "before" CdA measurement?

I tend to agree and that will be pretty impressive if I am. Pulling my shoulders into my shrug is feeling better and I will continue to work it into my intervals. The CdA I have, but not one that likely should/would correlate well with my before is 0.198 at 0º and 0.185 at 10º(Photos below). What I will say is the suit is/was slower than the BP3, the Devox2(UCI) was/is sure to be slower than the Bayo3, but almost everything else should be close to what I ran in August at Church Creek (local flat windy 40K) where I managed to roll 25.4mph on 193watts. I had a bad day, for sure. I was "hoping" to be ~220, but blew up trying to hold that number. However, I was much higher in the front with a higher hand position that what you see in the tunnel(Photo of that day below as well). That being said, my tunnel position was never that efficient out on course, which leads me to believe my before numbers should be lower.

I will be getting STAC scanned here in about 2 weeks or so and i'll share what comes of that, as well as detailing the process. Also, if things pan out I'll be heading with Brian to A2 to vet the scan/my position/helmet choice in the tunnel.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 6:03

Post #18 of 25 (4595 views)

lacticturkey wrote:

This bike is drool worthy... Nicely curated!

Secondly, well done on getting your trophies in the shot 😜

Thank you! She has been a good steed these last 8 1/2 years. Also, I didn't notice the trophies until the post was up (that shot is actually from a few weeks back). Blindly incorporating them is such a side win.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 6:48

Post #19 of 25 (4542 views)

I owe you some better ones, but here's an action shot of my DA. My head is up because at this moment I was going through a sketchy cone section (right by my front wheel) and coming up on traffic, but I normally do better. And I forgot my shoe covers, which I'm still kicking myself because I was off my PR by a couple of seconds.

2011 DA2
HED Corsair bars
Tririg front brake
Took off the FD, so 1x, SRAM Force crank with P2M spider.
Normally run a Dura-Ace RD, but this shows a Force CX1 RD which I run for courses where I worry about chain drops.
Speedplay Aero pedals
808 front / Flo rear in this shot

I've estimated my CdA to be around 0.2, using my own testing (AeroLab). Pure ballpark, though. I'm a bigger dude at 6'4", though.

Last edited by: trail: Dec 2, 18 6:51

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 10:37

Post #20 of 25 (4458 views)

LAI wrote:

I will be getting STAC scanned here in about 2 weeks or so and i'll share what comes of that, as well as detailing the process. Also, if things pan out I'll be heading with Brian to A2 to vet the scan/my position/helmet choice in the tunnel.

Will be cool to get check on how STAC compares to the tunnel.

I recently got in a good block of field testing and managed a 10% CdA drop. Most of that involved raising the pads from -18cm to -10cm, and some postural changes. Another big chunk was a helmet change. The Selector was the bad one, even though it looks like it should be good.

I didn't look much like you when I was in my "low" position, but the video you posted above is fairly close to where I am now.

If the shrug feels like too much effort, you may try adjusting pad width... and extending reach may help.

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [trail] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 11:50

Post #21 of 25 (4392 views)

Digging that rig! Going to need more pics once you have it back together.

Also, you shaved the FD hanger? Was it glued on or just a matter of drilling the rivets? I hesitate with mine as I didn't want into a mess of a glued on hanger. Therefore, I chose to run the AC chain catcher/guide, but to be honest that thing doesn't work. Also, did you delete the cable stop as well? Lastly, what did you do to fill/over the holes?

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 12:01

Post #22 of 25 (4375 views)

rruff wrote:

I recently got in a good block of field testing and managed a 10% CdA drop. Most of that involved raising the pads from -18cm to -10cm, and some postural changes. Another big chunk was a helmet change. The Selector was the bad one, even though it looks like it should be good.

Dang! 10%, that's huge. I bet that put a big smile on your face. I did so much with position when I was in the tunnel that I really didn't get around to trying different helmets. Really not sure that the Selector is the best for me, but might have been, just don't know. What I do know is the POC has such a great FOV that I know it made me faster even if it is a slower helmet/design, as I could hold my head lower. Now, I am hopeful that the AeroHead checks both those boxes for me.

And am I reading that right that you came up 8cm? If so, that makes my ~65mm rise look insignificant in comparison. Would you mind sharing a photo of your setup? I dig bikes. ;)

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 13:48

Post #23 of 25 (4314 views)

LAI wrote:

Dang! 10%, that's huge. I bet that put a big smile on your face.

It did. Provisionally. I had to repeat the test on 3 different days before I believed it.

Even though it was a 10% CdA drop, it was only ~5% better than what I'd achieved a few years ago on an older bike with a low tech skinsuit (doh). I don't have a photo of my latest setup handy, but below is what I looked like 4 years ago. The "bad" position I used this summer was about the same only with hands tilted to chin level, a Selector, different bike (Chinese FM068) and a BP3 or Velotec suit. At least now I'm getting less drag rather than higher! I never suspected the Selector because it looks good on me and works well for others. And the Limar is very basic and doesn't look like it would be fast.

Now that I've finally found a venue that seems to give consistent results and is not too dangerous, I'll probably do more field testing. Even then I spend at least 10 hrs total looking at A vs B before I can conclude anything. And that is something easy to swap like helmets. It's a lot of work.

Yes, 8cm. There is a huge range of motion in the shoulders. In the photo the shoulders are pulled down and in front. Now they are higher relative to my torso and pulled towards my ears. The peak of my back is no higher than it was before. I can raise my hands just a little to close off the gap under my chin. I'm actually UCI legal now ;)

Last edited by: rruff: Dec 2, 18 13:58

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 15:38

Post #24 of 25 (4242 views)

Wow 10%, and you went up. Please share a pic of the new position when you have a chance. Maybe start a new thread :)

Re: Come in and tell me my saddle is high... [LAI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 2, 18 18:08

Post #25 of 25 (4195 views)

I’m interested as well in how he got rid of the hanger. Pretty much 100% set in 1x after 3 seasons but, like you, have kept it on and running the hanger as well to make it look better and hopefully gain those few watts they claim!

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