Fyrberd:

Here’s some guidance based on different goals and tri classification to consider in answering your question:

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/coach-selfcoach

Questions with two polarized answers, like the one you are asking, generally will prove both answers correct over time, just not at the same time. Evaluate whether you are more in the “This” section on the Hired Coach side or the Self-Coached side. That will serve as guidance for your best answer today. Over time though, your updated evaluation will reveal that you faltered, or dropped into either of the “Not This” boxes. In changing behavior, people will most likely switch to the “This” section on the opposite side to reap the benefits of the other solution. To best benefit over a tri career, people should strive to stay in either of the two “This” sections. The green arrows represent the concept in a going back and forth action. Their shallowness represents to recognize the possible impairments of either option and switch before hitting the bottom.

Think of breathing. Which is best, breathing in or out? They both have pros and cons; however, nobody can do these simultaneously. Being coached or coaching yourself is no different.

I was self coached initially up through 70.3 distance. Decided I needed a coach for 140.6. I loved allowing someone else to plan things out and especially adjust things when “life happened” and having a good coach has helped keep me injury free. The most frequent questions I get from my coach are “how did that feel” and “how are you feeling” She’s looking at the data so she can have a pretty good idea but she wants to hear it from the “horse’s mouth”.

Since I’m doing a lot more events including gravel and tri throughout the year it makes it far more complicated for me to train and taper well when events aren’t that far apart. For me, that’s one of the biggest benefits of having a coach. I was okay self coaching focusing on one event. But when I start adding in many events it just got a little complex.

I had 2 different coaches last year, my first proper year of training hard with coaches and had my worst year. There were a number of reasons, both races had tough conditions, there were some pacing issues on my part, but ultimately my run fitness was not what it should have been. Typically I would run lots and not ride as much when self-coached. It was lop-sided, but worked out. I always ran reasonably well. With the coaching there was more of a balance, run volume was reduced, bike volume increased, which meant I got stronger on the bike and as they saying goes, that will help your run. Well with me the only thing that helps me run well is running. So now I'm back to self-coaching. I will work on my bike, but make sure that run volume is the priority as well as having a few run time trials to make sure I'm on track.

I’m a coach and I’ll try to give you the short version to your questions, but first I believe language is important so we should probably start at the top. The title of your post is “Coach vs, Self-Coached.” The important idea to point out here is that you are either coached or not, there is no self-coaching. The most valuable thing a coach provides that an athlete can’t to themselves is a qualified, experienced, objective point of view on the athlete and their training.

The training plan is maybe 20% of my value as a coach. You can then figure out what a cookie cutter coach’s value is from there.

In regards to the swim, my experience is that an athlete gives up a MINIMUM of 10% of the gains they could make swimming alone and remotely versus me coaching them every workout with the team. And I’ve only had one pro triathlete who I worked with get close to that 10%. For most athletes it’s closer to a 15%-20% differential. The bike and run don’t see that sort of difference but there still is one.

There’s plenty of books, YouTube videos, articles on training, forums to get information, but there is a huge difference between that knowledge or information, application of that knowledge (experience) and finally mastery (wisdom) of helping an athlete achieve peak performance.

Hope this helps and if you have any questions, let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

You’ve got it backwards. You need to get in, swim with the stroke you’ve got, build up your strength and conditioning and feel for the water and work on your technique along the way. If you try to start before you are training you won’t have the strength and conditioning in the water to even get to a lot of the technique to help you swim more efficiently.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Great question. Agree with most of the comments so far. For me the decision on whether to get a coach or not depended on my goals and how they fit into my current lifestyle. I should first say I chose to have an online coach that has proved to be amazing. A little background, I am in my mid 40's, former Div 1 track athlete (400m, 400m hurdler) so my strongest leg in triathlons is obviously the run. Also have a wife and kid who don't take kindly to long abscences on the weekend and a pretty busy professional life, with haphazard shift hours making it hard for me to do my training at the same time every day, sometimes even needing to do my workouts at night. I've been doing triathlons for 20+ years, working my way up to a full IM, but thus far mainly Olympic and Half IM distances. I was self coaching (given my track background, I have a decent idea of interval training and not redlining etc) until about 2 years ago. In the past, I was ranking in the top 5-10 in the races I competed in. Since using a coach, I have been 1st or 2nd in my age group everytime and top 5% in half IM distances!!! My coach is more than just a 'brain' who does my programming. She takes into account my busy work and family life, looks at my performance and tweeks my workouts accordingly so as not to 'overwork' my training. She knows my strengths in running and I think tweeks my workouts to further strengthen them, but also knows my weaknesses (swimming) and makes sure I work on building those. Perhaps the best thing is she tweeks my regimen to prevent overuse or chronic injury. Specifically, I started getting a flare up of the dreaded plantar fasciitis, she throttled back on some of my running, gave recommendations for stretches, icing, strengthening that have kept it from flaring up and has kept my cardio up by adding more cycling. Also given pools are closed (thanks to COVID), she has also added more strength and dryland cord training in exchange for swimming. None of this I could have figured out how to do myself, or might have tried through online research but probably would not have stuck to it or would have done it all wrong. Anyhow, she's worth every penny. But my goals are to keep improving against myself and she has helped me achieve them each year I've had her. I was also skeptical about an online coach who doesn't see you in person to critique and give feedback but she also offers critique through videos as well as nutrition advice/help which I have yet to take advantage of. In short, this online coach works for me. I'm sure there are plenty out there that might not. Not sure a book or those canned programs would do it for my specific needs and goals. In person coaching or team coaching would be different but my work schedule doesn't make that a realistic option. Self coaching, after ~18yrs of doing it, only got me so far. S no regrets about online coaching from me. Hope that helps. Good luck.

Why do you need a coach for swimming? Read Sheila Taormina's book "Swim Speed Secrets". It'll take one night and you'll have all the info you need to practice in the pool.

Exact same for me. Most people are endurance junkies and like reading and learning about the sport. At the end of the day, no one knows yourself better than you do. Unpopular opinion that coaches are way overrated and exploit those willing to overspend on anything.

I like to think that I am well read on the subject of physiology; at least enough to make this endurance sport hobby a lot of fun. Regardless of what I think I know, I have worked with a fantastic triathlon coach for the past year and I find his input into my activities invaluable. I am often, all by myself while in the water, or pedalling my bike, or out on a run but having a coach, for me, means that I am never alone in my journey.

I have gone years, if not decades, pushing through personal and professional aspects of life, refusing to ask for help or reaching out for guidance. That for me, was a fault that I repeated too many times; a fault I’d rather not repeat while investing in something that is supposed to be fun and rewarding.

I would think swimming which is so reliant on technique would be the most important element requiring a coaches feedback.

A coach's perspective:

The two most important things that a good coach provides are objectivity and experience/context


Objectivity:

Left to their own devices, athletes almost always return to previous bad habits. This is true across all elements of training - biomechanics, recovery, 'intensity discipline'. The path back into that pattern that has been 'grooved' is always present & it leads to things like athletes cognitively agreeing with a particular intensity distribution but in practice, moving closer and closer to that every day grind that feels like it's 'doing something' or, ignoring signs of needed recovery due to that subjective voice in the back of your head reminding you "but your competition is out there training right now". It's very tough to make objective, smart decisions when you are literally the subject of those decisions.

Experience/Context:

Full time Coaches are exposed to significantly more data & experiences than any self coached athlete could possibly accrue. Experiences such as, 'I had an athlete who was a lot like you that started where you are now and achieved his goal of Kona Qualification.' If I have access to all of the data along that entire transition, I have access to a journey that I can compare your own progression against over time & iteratively make better & better decisions for each subsequent similar experience. As a coach is exposed to more and more athletes, the power of this contextual knowledge can't be overestimated.

####

At risk of obvious bias, without access to the above, IMO, it is very tough for most self coached athletes to 'make it on their own'. The path is full of legitimate self-doubt that comes from those questions...

"Am I truly doing the 'right' thing, or is my subjective bias causing me to make poor decisions?"

"Do I truly have the knowledge/context to plan for situations/levels of fitness that I am yet to experience?"

An honest answer to the above questions will lead the athlete in the right direction.

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Alan Couzens, M.Sc. (Sports Science)
Exercise Physiologist/Coach
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Alan_Couzens
Web: https://alancouzens.com

I agree that swimming would utilize the coach best - but if you're just aspiring to be a decent MOP or even FOP (but not absolute top tri swimmer), most people can get there on there own through hard work even without a coach.

I do think there's a myth about swim coaches being able to turn nearly anyone into a competitive-grade swimmer that would crush the swim splits on triathlon, mainly because that's the level of swimming you see from 11 and 12 year old girl swim teams. People think, wow - if these 12 yr old girls can kill it, there is NO reason I shouldn't be killing it - must be the coach!

And then you find out that this 12 yr old competitive squad is NOT just a squad of randos. It's literally a grouping of the most talented, most motivated, and most dedicated kids to swimming in the entire area. It even self-selects - if you're not up for hardcore swimming day in day out, you're not going to continue.

Also, you can also go check out the local YMCA swim squad which does NOT only select the most hardcore swimmers - and these kids are still arguably wayyyy more motivated and even talented to swim than most AG triathletes. And yeah, they look like how normal 12 year olds would swim.

I'm MOP edging on FOP in the swim segments in local aquathon races (about 31 minutes for 1.5 km, 30% percentile in a 1.5 km swim - 6 km run aquathon with 209 finishers), but I'm in the slowest lane of the triathlon club swim squad, and I can't stay with most open water swim groups around my city without putting assistance. I'm also near the bottom in most open water swim races in the city (11th out of 13 in my latest race which was 14 km). I want to become a good swimmer (and orienteer) with running (and biking) as my secondary sports.

I went overambitious today trying to follow an open water group which is mainly composed of triathletes (rather than life-long swimmers). They do Ironman races, and I know one who even does Ultraman and Enduroman. My friend told me that the group is at slightly above 2' pace so I believed that I might be able to stay on the pack's feet without using assistance. It turned out that, after 1.5 km, I couldn't stay on their feet. I ended up putting on assistance trying not to lag behind so much, but after 5 km, I got fatigued so much that even with fins on I couldn't keep on his feet. I believe that the only reason why I can't stay on a triathlete's (who did not have a swimming background and could only barely swim 50 minutes in a pool 6 years ago, as reported from the news) feet is that my swimming technique is really crap. Also after 7.5 km swim the whole of my back was completely sore, along with my upper arms. I don't know if it is normal or if it means I have problems in my swim technique. (I actually did a 14 km swim race this January but my effort level was much lower to avoid burning out before the finish)



I want a swim coach such that she can bring me to MOP or FOP in marathon swimming races.



May I ask what's the difference in motivation between most AG triathletes and YMCA swim squads? I'm definitely an AG triathlete and I also do standalone swimming and running races as well.

I think you mentioned it before, but exactly how much (when pools were/are open for you) are you swimming a week to target marathon swims?

That's a totally different beast than AG triathlon swimming, even for IM swims, which a good swimmer can do in an hour or less.

Also, if you're swimming with enduroman-type triathlon swimmers, these are probably good swimmers who swim a LOT.

I do agree though that you should have plenty of room to improve both on technique and fitness as I think in the other thread you mentioned you're a pretty new swimmer, and as well, it's very realistic to get out of the BOP of a non-elite trisquad swimgroup with proper training although you do have to be patient here too - I was stuck there for nearly 2years, and another 2 years just to get to 50% in tri swim races. Only after that did I get to the top 30% and now 15-20% consistently.

Depending on the race, but I commonly swim 15 - 20 km / week to prepare for a 10 - 15 km marathon swim. (I still need to make time to train for my run and orienteering).

My friend, who broke the record of Enduroman last year, is now training for a 45 km round-island swim this October. I originally want to do that as well next February (he prefers hot water swim but I prefer cold water swim) but I've now put it on hold due to cost reason, and now given the interruption in training I don't think I can do it early next year anyway. He has a coach to write him training plans but the coach is not a swim coach. He does not currently have a swim coach. I am looking for the other way round. I don't need a coach to follow my training but I definitely need a swim coach to make sure that my swim technique is good enough such that my self-written training plan won't get me injured while I progressively increase my intensity.

I think you are swimming guys too fast for you if you are trying to keep up with a record breaker.

..
The funny thing is,the record breaking guy he is talking about is exactly the guy he should be listening to as he trained himself from an average Ultraman swimmer to a guy who only swam 16 minutes slower than one of Australia's best Ultra-swimmers across the Channel in the Arch to Arc. He won't listen though.

Thanks for this. Ironically, I've been a swimmer for about 30 years and [until March] a Masters regular, so it's always been the bike and the run where I need the most help. But yeah, I think I can definitely keep putt-putting along with all my experience, but a coach would probably help bring my bike and run down to something less terrible and closer to my potential peak. So now I just need a coach to actually return my messages!

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[what Yoda said about trying]

This is great! I like the idea of finding someone who can help you "improve against yourself" because they know your weaknesses. I know for me it's easy to go to Masters 4 times a week and only bike twice, when really those should be reversed. But without someone to *tell* me to get on my bike, it can be more fun just to keep swimming. This gives me lots to think about, so thanks for your comment!

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[what Yoda said about trying]

The whole idea of an objective observer is something I haven't thought a lot about, but you're right that it's important. I do tend to fall down the rabbit hole of self-doubt and "I never get any better at this and what am I doing and this is a waste of time", which hopefully a coach of some kind could short circuit. Thanks!

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[what Yoda said about trying]

Wholeheartedly agree with the above.

As a full-time coach, it is far easier to make objective, rational decisions around the training of my athletes (and lack thereof when needed!) then it ever has been due write training for myself. Even when full cognisant of the likely implications of certain decisions, truly ‘believing in yourself’ and making wise decisions when it comes to coaching yourself is often much more difficult in practice than it is in theory!

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Coach at Scientific Triathlon
http://www.scientifictriathlon.com

Spoken like a true triathlete...

"That is why you fail."
Master Yoda

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

If you get a coach a good and actually listen to them; you will go faster and be hurt less....... I have a coach off and on that I dont listen to much and I never really achieve my true potential and I get hurt a lot. Dont be me.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Interesting blog from cyclingapps looking at research on this question.....https://www.cyclingapps.net/...here-any-difference/

Pros and cons: http://www.ahmadfahmy.com/...ach-vs-self-coaching

N of 1 experience: https://bikes-n-stuff.com/...s-tailored-training/

I absolutely do not agree with the bold marked part and do not think that every one who is coaching themselves (yes I use the expression) is not doing that "qualified, experienced and with an objective point of view".