Again Challenge seem to be trying to keep the paying public up to speed and also moving quicker than IM


i know its slightly different for the IM BRAND ,but surely if challenge are moving a july race which is possibly biggest in europe then IM should grow a pair and do so sooner than later

Challenge see their athletes as family and treat them accordingly! IM needs to listen to the frustrations of their athletes.

Strange, I havent received any communication yet? Did you get this as an e-mail?

Anyway, it seems to be correct, according to the home page

I got it 04:51 this morning
There will be a live talk from Felix @12:00 today

Weekend after Collins Cup.

That must have been fun discussions for the organizers.
It moves into harvest season, which I know was a real problem for Ironman Regensburg back in the day with it's August date.
Farmers need to move stuff down roads, even on a Sunday.
It will at least be easier to get accommodation outside of peak tourist time.

Love the way Challenge is decisive early. Rough date for folks with 70.3 Worlds and Kona on the books, will need to make some tough choices (although who knows the fate of those two races anyway...)

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Anders

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...and only five weeks before Kona which makes me wonder why Slowtwitch hasn't gone into meltdown speculating on how the big names will manage both races so close together.
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becasue felix knows if kona happens the top pros go there . if it dosnt happen and roth happens the top pros will be in roth.

Felix did a q&a on FB and a question was brought up about the pro field.
He made it clear this race is all about the AG people who pay to be there and he wants to deliver a great experience for them.
It will be interesting if Kona doesn’t happen and the pros head to Roth.

I would think Kona has better chance in Oct than Roth in September.

• Clearly, #1 priority for Ironman. They can't lose another WC. And they can't let Challenge keep one-upping them.
• Hawaii has already loosened up from standpoint of entry (negative test gets you in). 7 months from now, I'm guessing will be better.
• My guess Kona participant numbers will be down as not all qualifiers can't/won't be able to travel.
• Roth biggest race in the world... 3500 athletes, 650 relays... 7000+ volunteers, 100,000+ (?) spectators... plus, could see Germany staying more restrictive than US next fall.

Challenge in my books has been watching IM and learning lots of lessons of what not to do, and I truly hope it pays dividends for all the different Challenge races.

Hell just postponing MONTHS in advance would be a welcome shift to many IM participants because then they can plan their travel vs scrambling to make changes/cancellations.

Offering 1:1 deferrals and/or refunds is just icing on the cake.

Somewhat unrelated, at Challenge Daytona, I was sitting at a bar next Bob Babbitt and he was talking to someone about Challenge N.A. and how there was internal discussions about starting to look at the Daytona model of finding other race tracks/venues with infield water to host more races in the future due to the effects of the pandemic. He looked at 2020's race being a test for what can be done both at the AG level as well as for the pro fields and media representation.

That's some serious forward thinking on many different fashions both mid/post pandemic for both racing as well as sport growth. What is IM doing? Just hoping it all ends soon while ignoring the giant elephant in the room.

IMs cash cow are people walking up and saying "I want to do an ironman" but with the lingering pandemic how many of those one and done will be keeping that motivation to keep training. Of those bucket-listers who MAYBE had a shot of doing an additional race after the first one, how many have been left with such a nasty taste that just take their one race they paid for years ago and just walk away.

He looked at 2020's race being a test for what can be done both at the AG level as well as for the pro fields and media representation.

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That imo is a misguided view on Daytona '20 though. Because it sold out simply because no one could race. The half went fron 419 in 2019 to 1018 in 2020.

(70.3 numbers)
2018- 494
2019- 419
2020- 1018

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I didn't mean as far as being a sell-out and profit reasons, I more mean as a means to race in an uncertain time and to minimize the community impact. It also was a test on how to market Triathlon to the media (i.e. using Daytona speedways media infastructre and experience to produce a media package/coverage that couldn't be matched on the road without further community involvement)

For instance the ONLY permits needed were for miles ~5 through ~55 of the bike and so considering a cutoff time the need for police and road closures was massively reduced compared to any other half ironman and maybe less invasive than some olympic distance races held on public roads.

The point wasn't that they looked at it as a model of success based on attendance but rather community involvement as well as a way to circumvent some other community issues. Considering the impact on communities both positive (cash flow) as well as negative (road closures, traffic, etc) having a minimal impact (3 or 4 hours vs 7 or 8) will build much more future buy-in from the host communities.

At the end of the day, an event that sells out at 50% with permits has a 100% more chance of happening than an event with 100% sell out but a host community that doesn't want to host it.

Is this where races are going though or a solution used for a pandemic?
The racetrack venue idea is cool for a pro race spectacle and broadcasting and easy to organize, but for age groupers? I duno.

A great solution for right now might not be a great solution in general.

Maybe I actually want to race on courses with scenery instead of a concrete bowl.... but that's just me.

Except that the AG's only spent about 10% of the bike leg on the race track....so it's the best of both worlds. You get the AG athletes the sensation of racing on the "speedway" while also the normal run of the mill 70.3 "scenary" bike leg after that.

ETA: No race organizer that has 1k+ participants is going to put them riding in circles for 3 hours in that close of real estate.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The Esprit Triathlon has been running 36 years. It has a half distance with 21 laps of the F1 circuit (4.3km).
https://esprittriathlon.com/location/
There used to even be a full distance IIRC.
The Circuit Gilles Villeneuve is a lot prettier (and lots of turns!) than the Daytona oval however.
I don't recall how many total participants they used to get at the height of this race.


Anyone who was thinking the whole racetrack thing is a new idea, well... no.

Except none of that contradicts what I said does it? I said there are not going to have 1k+ participants riding in circles. The half Esprit didn't even avg 400 people in the last 9 years based on sporttracks numbers. If they had 2370 in 1997 ok cool....You have pulled likely the only venue in the world like that to try and prove a point which is what we call an outlier. So my point stands, you were talking about somehow you wanting to do an course that has scenary, and I'll put any wager you want that a Challenge and IM quantity field will never ride for the entirety of the bike leg in a closed circuit.

Your initial comment seemed to suggest AG athletes don't get "scenery" on these courses. Challenge nor IM is never going to have an closed circuit for the mass AG's; that's idiotic from a safety standpoint when you are talking about being on the bike for 2-4ish hours (double that for an IM, etc).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Absolutely. Just saying it has been done. I sure wouldn't want to have to remember my lap count if I had to do 42 laps. Yikes.

Also, please note the correct spelling of this word: scenery

Who gives a shit the correct spelling when you know what I'm referring too.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Just a reply in general, you happen to be the last post:

There are a lot of race tracks that are not ovals. Also, there are racetracks that are a lot longer than the 2.5 mile Daytona speedway. In general, these are road courses. So not always going in circles, have scenery don't have to do 42 laps for a full. ********** The key to it, though, is do they have water? *** I'm guessing Watkins Glen doesn't since they have the Fly by Night duathlon (& heck I've even been there for a NASCAR race).

Does Sonoma,CA have water? What about Road America? Or Road Atlanta? Or VIR (Virginia International Raceway)? The Formula One track in Texas?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

I do.

No race company is going to put IM or Challenge sized AG fields in confined closed courses for the length of half and IM distances. Sprints can work because generally the timing of the AG waves means people are getting on and off the track essentially at the same time so there's not thousands of athletes all together; like there would be for an half IM distance race or IM distance race.

But to answer your question

Watkins Glen- no water on property

Sonoma- no water on property

Road America- no water on property (2 lakes within like 1 mile of venue)

Atlanta- no water on property

VIR- no water on property and in the middle of no where

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Good on you, and I bet you still knew what I was talking about. So if you want to be the spelling police, by all means correct me anytime you'd like. If I misspell one word in a paragraph, and you or Nordic want to make a note of it; by all means please do. I'll give you the same response I gave Nordic, I don't give 2 shits if I misspell a word on a triathlon forum when you can still clearly understand the point; thus the misspelled word basically changes nothing to the context of the point.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II