Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article

Oct 26, 20 14:45

Post #1 of 30 (1974 views)

https://flocycling.com/...aluminum-rim-braking

I'm not here to re-plow well-tread grounded about the strength of carbon rims, I'm strictly interested in a discussion of stopping performance for rim brakes in carbon v. aluminum brake tracks. I know this has been discussed a lot, but I'm still interested. To the extent it is a myth, I have certainly bought into the idea that carbon rims brake more poorly than aluminum brake tracks. Flo suggested in the above article it is a myth. But, even its statements regarding the performance of carbon rim braking are filled with all sorts of qualifiers. This may only be so "when" carbon and compound brake pads are designed together. We "consider" our braking in our carbon rims to match aluminum rims (sounds like aluminum is the gold standard then if you are trying to get carbon to match it). You will only get the best braking results "if" you use our brake pads.

To be clear, I'm not attacking Flo here. All manufacturers basically say the same thing. It always struck is as a total gimmick to say you must use our brake pads to maximize braking power much like a manufacturer claiming you must use their batteries to operate their product correctly. And, it was also signal to me that something is wrong. If I can use virtually any pad with an aluminum rim, why do I need a special pad for carbon, unless there's the potential for inferior braking??

For me, braking is more important than going fast. I earn a living doing something other than riding and as much as I like to ride and race, I need to wake up the next day with my faculties and I'm not willing to gain an extra .1 MPH to lose an extra .5 seconds of braking of braking power (random numbers I'm using there). For rim brakes, I have never ridden carbon--in fact, I have refused to and sworn by HED, Flo for this reason.

So...….in the year 2020, with better carbon than existed 20-30 years ago, is it really a myth that carbon rim brake performance is inferior to aluminum brake performance?

Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Oct 27, 20 13:36

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:00

Post #2 of 30 (1956 views)

My $0.02 from owning way too many wheels:

-My Zipp NSWs and Mavic Cosmic Pros are on par with my regular HED Jets

-My Hed Jet Blacks are superior to every brake setup I have including my Fuel Ex with Guide Ultimate brakes with 180/160mm rotors.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:14

Post #3 of 30 (1931 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

So...….in the year 2020, with better carbon than existed 20-30 years ago, is it really a myth that carbon rim brake performance is inferior to aluminum brake performance?

Probably. I have never seen or heard of someone's carbon wheels failing under hard braking. Not even Lanzarote on the finishing switchbacks where hundreds or thousands of amateurs were descending on a hot and sunny environment ill-suited for shedding head.

I'm also sold on brake pad making all the difference.

- I started on aluminum box wheels. Great braking.
- Then had a QR with stock Reynolds wheels before they introduced their blue pads. Pretty bad braking.
- Eventually got Enve with textured brake tracks and their old black pads. Pretty good braking.
- Pads wore out and got the new grey ones several years later. Better. Good braking, I'd say.
- Recently got some Knight wheels which have smooth tracks and bought Reynolds newer blue pads which have a larger surface area (as wide as the brake track, throughout). Holy smokes, so good. Haven't tested in the wet, but in the dry they feel less quishy, brake smoothly, and are more powerful than Enve's setup. It changed my mind about the importance of textured tracks. I highly recommend those pads now.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:17

Post #4 of 30 (1926 views)

Hello GreenPlease and All,

Am I reading that right ?

If I get Hed Jet Blacks with aluminum rims I don't need to get rid of my rim brakes for disk brakes to keep up with changing times?

Whooo Hooo!!

https://www.bikeradar.com/...-jet-6-black-review/

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:18

Post #5 of 30 (1925 views)

My one criterium this year before the 'vid hit, I was using "reputable" carbon wheels with the appropriate Swiss Stop carbon pads. A combination that in normal conditions was comparable to aluminum rims.

But the crit was in a downpour. And it had a steep downhill into a sharp turn. It was stark cold terrifying for me. My brakes did close to nothing. So I just stayed in front and crossed my fingers railing that turn every time way faster than I wanted to with wet tires.

Maybe Flo and some other carbon rims are fantastic in the rain. Mine were not.

I'd call out the brand except they sponsor my team, and I don't want to throw them under the bus. :)

Last edited by: trail: Oct 26, 20 18:58

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:30

Post #6 of 30 (1912 views)

DFW_Tri wrote:

If I can use virtually any pad with an aluminum rim, why do I need a special pad for carbon, unless there's the potential for inferior braking??

To be fair, there's quite a difference in brake pad performance with aluminum rims as well. No comparison between the stock pads that come on many house-brand brakes (usually re-badged Tektro or Promax), and Kool-Stops. First thing for any new brakes I get is throw out the original pads and replace them with Kool-Stops for aluminum, or the manufacturer recommended pads for carbon.

BigBoyND wrote:

I have never seen or heard of someone's carbon wheels failing under hard braking. Not even Lanzarote on the finishing switchbacks where hundreds or thousands of amateurs were descending on a hot and sunny environment ill-suited for shedding head.

I've seen quite a few, but not recently. And those were all cheaper open mold rims, not name brands...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:34

Post #7 of 30 (1905 views)

BigBoyND wrote:

DFW_Tri wrote:

So...….in the year 2020, with better carbon than existed 20-30 years ago, is it really a myth that carbon rim brake performance is inferior to aluminum brake performance?

Probably. I have never seen or heard of someone's carbon wheels failing under hard braking..

I’m not talking about “failure” in the sense that you seem to be indicating. I’m taking about braking power (if that’s the right word).....by way of example, a rim brake stopping a bike in 3 seconds as opposed to 3.5 seconds by a carbon brake track. In that instance, the carbon brake still works but perhaps not as well.

Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Oct 26, 20 15:37

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:52

Post #8 of 30 (1890 views)

In that regard, as someone mentioned above, the pads make the difference. My Knight wheels with Reynolds blue pads leave nothing to be desired*

*pending wet testing

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 15:59

Post #9 of 30 (1879 views)

BigBoyND wrote:

In that regard, as someone mentioned above, the pads make the difference. My Knight wheels with Reynolds blue pads leave nothing to be desired*

*pending wet testing

Nice qualifier! ;)

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 17:15

Post #10 of 30 (1827 views)

GreenPlease wrote:

-My Hed Jet Blacks are superior to every brake setup I have including my Fuel Ex with Guide Ultimate brakes with 180/160mm rotors.

Word...and how do you think they perform with these brakes? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 17:31

Post #11 of 30 (1810 views)

That’s... that’s beautiful.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 17:58

Post #12 of 30 (1772 views)

I have not read the article, but with Flo and their excellent reputation, l would imagine that it is supported by the evidence.

That said, even with the best carbon rims and rim brake pads, do any of them work even ok in the wet? Because that is where, at least in my experience, things can get very sketchy ...

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 18:13

Post #13 of 30 (1757 views)

Yeah, I would usually agree. And that’s what I was expecting when I clicked on it. But the part of the article that deals with this topic was rather lacking and seemingly anecdotal—at least they didn’t cite any evidence.

Maybe Jon (??—i can’t recall which owner stepped away from Flo) will join the thread and provide some insight!

Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Oct 26, 20 18:48

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 18:46

Post #14 of 30 (1734 views)

The first time in my over 40 years of cycling, that I applied the brakes, in a drizzly triathlon, and NOTHING happened, was with my brand new all carbon Flo's, and the brake shoes they came with. Before that, I had only rode aluminum wheels. The older brakes on aluminum were less effective when wet, but at least they worked. This was a shock to me, as I had no idea it was that bad. It was the first time I rode carbon wheels in rain. Up to that point, I had rode on dry days, and they worked fine.

Athlinks / Strava

Last edited by: Dean T: Oct 26, 20 18:48

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Dean T] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 18:54

Post #15 of 30 (1720 views)

Dean T wrote:

The first time in my over 40 years of cycling, that I applied the brakes, in a drizzly triathlon, and NOTHING happened, was with my brand new all carbon Flo's, and the brake shoes they came with. Before that, I had only rode aluminum wheels. The older brakes on aluminum were less effective when wet, but at least they worked. This was a shock to me, as I had no idea it was that bad. It was the first time I rode carbon wheels in rain. Up to that point, I had rode on dry days, and they worked fine.

It was these stories that steered me away from carbon all these years. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that carbon brakes equally well in wet weather, no matter the pads. I’m just not convinced this is a myth.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 20 22:45

Post #16 of 30 (1629 views)

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I have not read the article, but with Flo and their excellent reputation, l would imagine that it is supported by the evidence.

That said, even with the best carbon rims and rim brake pads, do any of them work even ok in the wet? Because that is where, at least in my experience, things can get very sketchy ...

I've had zero issues descending with textured Enves in the wet

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 4:57

Post #17 of 30 (1520 views)

Tom A. wrote:

GreenPlease wrote:

-My Hed Jet Blacks are superior to every brake setup I have including my Fuel Ex with Guide Ultimate brakes with 180/160mm rotors.

Word...and how do you think they perform with these brakes? ;-)

I wanted to do a similar conversion on my conti cyclocross bike. unfortunately these brakes are 'closed circuit' and should not be combined with drop bar hydro shifters.
Are you still using mtb/trekking krake levers or have you found out a way to combine them with drop bar shifters?

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 4:59

Post #18 of 30 (1517 views)

BigBoyND wrote:

I've had zero issues descending with textured Enves in the wet

Rain is where carbon wheel braking can really break down. I agree ENVE are pretty good in this regard. Roval are complete trash. Supposedly Zipp NSW are very good, but I’ve not tried them.

Dimond Bikes Superfan

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 5:05

Post #19 of 30 (1509 views)

ericlambi wrote:

BigBoyND wrote:

I've had zero issues descending with textured Enves in the wet

Rain is where carbon wheel braking can really break down. I agree ENVE are pretty good in this regard. Roval are complete trash. Supposedly Zipp NSW are very good, but I’ve not tried them.

100%. it's quite manufacturer specific. I had a pair of well known, but not "top of the line" like Enve or Zipp. In wet they were awful. I came from Hed braking surfaces (Jet and Ardennes).

I saw a room of pro tour riders refuse to ride a specific wheel. Even with sponsor consequences.

Flo should provide data and testing methodology if they want these claims to be taken seriously especially since they to against many people's experience. It should be pretty easy to measure.

Last edited by: marcag: Oct 27, 20 6:08

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 5:36

Post #20 of 30 (1487 views)

Based on my experience, the braking performance of aluminum rims is far better than that of carbon rims, wet or dry, ...

This year, after a winter on the trainer, I started riding outdoors on carbon rims (Zipp NSW using Zipp brake pads). Because it had been a 4+ months since riding outdoors on aluminum rims, it did not immediately strike me that the braking performance was significantly different. When prepping for a hilly and potentially wet ride, I swapped wheels to aluminum rims (HED Ardennes Plus with standard Shimano pads). It ended up being a dry ride. Even dry, I was amazed how much better the braking performance was with aluminum rims.

Would different brake pads improve performance? Possibly, but I don't think it would have closed the gap significantly.

That is not to say that braking on carbon rims is unacceptable. That depends on your riding style, the course profile, the weather conditions, your bike handling skill, and your comfort level.

Brian

Last edited by: bpe: Oct 27, 20 5:38

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 7:30

Post #21 of 30 (1417 views)

ericlambi wrote:

Roval are complete trash. .

For wet braking, i totally agree. Otherwise, my roval wheels are great but they are dangerous when its wet. My Zipps (firecrest) aren't excellent in the wet, but at least i feel in control.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 7:37

Post #22 of 30 (1401 views)

BigBoyND wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I have not read the article, but with Flo and their excellent reputation, l would imagine that it is supported by the evidence.

That said, even with the best carbon rims and rim brake pads, do any of them work even ok in the wet? Because that is where, at least in my experience, things can get very sketchy ...

I've had zero issues descending with textured Enves in the wet

What does that mean, though? You haven't had an accident or died yet? Or are you saying that you believe (or have evidence) that those wheels can stop as quickly as an aluminum brake track?
If your health or life actually depended on it, do you still believe that Enves will stop as quickly?

Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Oct 27, 20 8:22

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 8:03

Post #23 of 30 (1372 views)

Jo O. wrote:

I wanted to do a similar conversion on my conti cyclocross bike. unfortunately these brakes are 'closed circuit' and should not be combined with drop bar hydro shifters.
Are you still using mtb/trekking krake levers or have you found out a way to combine them with drop bar shifters?

I'm using the MTB levers (4-finger length), but found this drop-bar adapter for them on Shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/...r-road-bike-drop-bar (to make up the bar diameter and orientation differences)

For shifters, I'm currently using a SRAM bar end TT shifter for the rear (driving a SRAM GX 10spd MTB derailleur) and since the bike has downtube bosses (and I don't shift the front much...it basically "lives" in the middle ring of the front triple setup) I just set up a simple (and light!) downtube shifter for the front. Here's a look at the whole thing:

I'm currently in the process of modifying the detent plate of an old Suntour "butterfly" Command Shifter that will mount right up next to the brake lever. There's a guy in Japan that actually sells a 10sp detent plate modification for that, but it's for Shimano 10sp road, and I'd have to run a J-Tek adapter to get it to the right cable pull...so, I decided to see if I could reverse-engineer and make one for the SRAM 10sp. I'm hoping that will make the shifting a bit more convenient in the dirt.

As far as "closed" vs. "open" goes...that shouldn't be an issue for these brakes. After all, SRAM used the SAME levers for both their road disc hydraulic brakes (open system) and their road RIM hydraulic brakes (closed system). All that happens is that the reservoir is never actually used in operation. IMO, the only thing keeping one from running a compatible fluid system disc brake lever (in this case it would be Shimano, since they and Magura both use mineral oil) would be the whether or not the master piston size is correct (or close enough)...no way to really know that without pulling the lever apart and looking. My hunch is it won't work, since most disc setups are high pressure (relatively) compared to the Magura low pressure setup for these brakes. There's a difference in the hose and fittings.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 27, 20 8:06

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 8:45

Post #24 of 30 (1336 views)

Tom A. wrote:

Jo O. wrote:

I wanted to do a similar conversion on my conti cyclocross bike. unfortunately these brakes are 'closed circuit' and should not be combined with drop bar hydro shifters.
Are you still using mtb/trekking krake levers or have you found out a way to combine them with drop bar shifters?

I'm using the MTB levers (4-finger length), but found this drop-bar adapter for them on Shapeways: https://www.shapeways.com/...r-road-bike-drop-bar (to make up the bar diameter and orientation differences)

For shifters, I'm currently using a SRAM bar end TT shifter for the rear (driving a SRAM GX 10spd MTB derailleur) and since the bike has downtube bosses (and I don't shift the front much...it basically "lives" in the middle ring of the front triple setup) I just set up a simple (and light!) downtube shifter for the front. Here's a look at the whole thing:

I'm currently in the process of modifying the detent plate of an old Suntour "butterfly" Command Shifter that will mount right up next to the brake lever. There's a guy in Japan that actually sells a 10sp detent plate modification for that, but it's for Shimano 10sp road, and I'd have to run a J-Tek adapter to get it to the right cable pull...so, I decided to see if I could reverse-engineer and make one for the SRAM 10sp. I'm hoping that will make the shifting a bit more convenient in the dirt.

As far as "closed" vs. "open" goes...that shouldn't be an issue for these brakes. After all, SRAM used the SAME levers for both their road disc hydraulic brakes (open system) and their road RIM hydraulic brakes (closed system). All that happens is that the reservoir is never actually used in operation. IMO, the only thing keeping one from running a compatible fluid system disc brake lever (in this case it would be Shimano, since they and Magura both use mineral oil) would be the whether or not the master piston size is correct (or close enough)...no way to really know that without pulling the lever apart and looking. My hunch is it won't work, since most disc setups are high pressure (relatively) compared to the Magura low pressure setup for these brakes. There's a difference in the hose and fittings.

Campagnolo hydro shifters use the same oil. Expensive experiment though.

Re: Carbon Rim Braking Performance-Flo Article [Jo O.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 20 8:56

Post #25 of 30 (1326 views)

Jo O. wrote:

Campagnolo hydro shifters use the same oil. Expensive experiment though.

Yeah...and their braking systems are actually designed by Magura. That said, from the pics I've seen, they appear to use the high pressure hose and fittings, not the lower pressure hose :-(

Another option (and also expensive) is Rotor, where the brakes are also designed/made by Magura. From what I can tell, the RT6/8 style hydraulic rim brakes use the same master cylinder bore diameter as the HS11/22/33 rim brakes, so the Rotor rim levers should work just fine.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

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