This seems like an awesome idea. My better half is of the opinion that every time I find one of these "awesome ideas" on the internet..they turn out to be, well.. not very awesome. So brain storming it a bit, assuming balance isn't issue, I figure that maybe the belt and tire might not have enough friction on an 8% slope, though I saw a few guys on youtube but they had the belt flat. Was also wondering if the treadmill wouldn't like the constant tire force, vs pounding on the belt, not sure about this one. Still giving it a try though.

Well I was ridinf the rollers which is basically a road moving under you with the bike stationary and on a treadmill the road moves under you with the human stationary. The problem with rollers is you cannot ride out of the saddle and hold high wattage and the problem with riding on the treadmill is that the bike has to go too fast.....but then I remembers riding up aloe d'huez and when I could hold 4 min per km it was an awesome kilometer split bit most of the time it was just a bit over 4....that is basically 13-15kph at 8 percent. Pretty easy for the treadmill to hold that speed, but hard for me to.

What I need to figure out is how to grad the rails and coast and wind down the speed of the treadmill to a stop while sitting on it. Maybe I need to recruit Peter Sagan to figure this out before it ends up in a Wiley Coyote cartoon crash episode. But I think if I start off riding 10kph at 6-7 percent it should be roughly 220W at my current weight so while it will be hard I should have enough head room to keep my coordination.

Is this route available on one of the virtual riding platforms like Zwift or others? Or could you create your own Alpr d'Huez route on Zwift and ride that?
I hear you on the treadmill idea but that seems ripe for an accident and you don't need another one of those!
John

Yes, Zwift has the 'real' Alpe d'Huez route approximation. Probably more realistic than a treadmill set @ 8% grade for 14km.

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tinman

You probably need one of the bike-specific mills to keep from falling off. The bike naturally shifts back/forth when you get out of the saddle, change cadence, etc. If you wheel touches the front plate or goes off the edge it’s pretty much a guaranteed wipeout.

There is a reason the bike mills are like $10k.

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Yes Chris Boardman definitely used to do something similar in the mid 90s, pre smart trainers etc: https://mpora.com/...ure-british-cycling/

Could you guide me to where this route is on Zwift?

One has to be level 12 in Zwift to have this route available. An alternative - find a group ride that includes the Alpe and you can experience it. More information here:

https://zwiftinsider.com/road-to-sky/

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tinman

Are you looking to get a realistic effort like climbing our just the position?

Since you aren't actually ascending, i don't see it giving you the same effort as climbing on the road. You'll essentially be holding yourself at a stationary elevation.

Perhaps i missed your intention?

How are you going to get resistance? Climbing in the real world requires power because you're actually moving upwards through Earth's gravitational field. Setting your bicycle at an angle on a treadmill and spinning it at 12kph is going to require only slightly more power than what it takes to overcome rolling resistance at 12kph, which isn't much.

Here is the math for the power you will need to put out to ride uphill on a grade (on a treadmil or road)

speed x mgsin theta + rolling resistance = power

where

speed = is speed of the treadmill in kph x 1000m/3600 seconds
m = mass of rider + bike + shoes + helmet
g = 9.8 meters per second squared
theta = angle of the slope

Its also why running uphill on a treadmill incline is harder than on the flats....you are fighting a retarding force of mgsin(theta).

That's the basic physics.

so just plug in the math and you get the total watts excluding rolling resistance. Depending on your tires, weight and pressure and the surface of the treadmill you can add a lot more watts.

As for the experiment, I think it would be most effective on a non motorized treadmill like the woodway curve so there is no safety issue:



You would need to jack up the front end so the back end is basically pointing up and not flat (which would remove some of the component of gravitation force). I don't think my fitness club would allow me to haul my bike in and try it!!!

For those asking about Zwift, I am not on it, however, the reason would be because most slow moving riders could burn out their load unit on a long climb at high wattage with low internal fan speed. Most of the resistance units need to move fast enough at high power to not melt down. Back in the old days, lots of people blew out their computrainer load units doing the Alpe d'Huez climb.

Dev

I'm familiar with power calculation for opposing gravity while riding up a hill.

I think you're right, but the issue with my logic is that I was incorrectly breaking the situation into separate parts: standing a bicycle still on a slope requires no power, and spinning a wheel against a treadmill requires nearly zero power. But since the rear wheel necessarily needs to be constantly applying a shear force against the belt to prevent the bicycle from accelerating (backwards), it will necessarily be driving power into the belt once that interface is in motion. And since this amount of acceleration-resisting shear force is the same on a sloped treadmill as on a sloped road, the power expenditure at a given "virtual" climb speed should be the same as for the equivalent real-world climb speed (since power is basically force*velocity).

You are not moving up, Dev.

Running is different.

On a treadmill incline of course you are contstantly moving up relative to the belt that is constrantly moving down....if not you will move down and backwards and go off the belt.

It was my first thought when I saw the title of the thread.

It's in Watopia and called Alpe de Zwift. I've done both and they've done a really good job. Turns are all the same, so is the slope. My times where within 30secs of each other when riding really hard and ending at the same spot.

The main difference is that on the trainer, you don't have all the pain in the back area unlike out on the road. And that's a major difference IMO.

What do you mean by this statement?
Thank you, John

When you ride in the mountains, there is a lot of work done by the upper body to stabilize the bike. Not on the trainer.

Oh yes I understand now. Plus the weight if standing and balancing a bike is different along with wind/heat/cold.

The route you want to select is called Road to Sky. It'll give you a 10-12 min. of flatish warmup time before hitting the base of Alpe de Zwift.

Running on a treadmill your feet are constantly moving from the front to the back of the treadmill. You also have to constantly step up.

With a bike on a treadmill your wheels will be in the same relative position all of the time.

So the work you are doing is holding yourself up against gravity. The steeper the incline the more work against it. But since you aren't actually ascending, the work at the same incline won't be the same as actually climbing.

The route you want to select is called Road to Sky. It'll give you a 10-12 min. of flatish warmup time before hitting the base of Alpe de Zwift.[/quote]
Thank you, I will check this out once I get to Level 12!
John

Because you do not have much room to translate forward on the belt, riding on the treadmill will lack the surges / accelerations that are possible while riding free outside. However, the forces on the treadmill will be similar (sans aero drag etc.) to riding free outside at a constant velocity. This work against gravity in a steady state will account for the vast majority of the workload.

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But still won't be the same as climbing since climbing includes holding yourself up and going upwards