I know its not helping, but I have at least 3 bikes and use all of them very frequently.

Tri bike for solo efforts and racing.

Road bike for group rides and recreational (charity rides) etc.

Mountain Bike - off-season training. (brings the fun back to cycling after a long season of road riding.)

I suggest you begin your search by determining how you will use your new bike. Make a list.

Buy several bikes using different techniques and taking everyone's advice, then base your opinions on the outcome.

Or, find someone you trust who buys bikes for a living and follow their instructions.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Color.

Mine is carbon fiber clearcoat black. Very cool.

FWIW, I live in a very hilly state so I own only a road bike with clip on aerobars. I'm also not very flexible, so more upright works for me. If I lived in a flat place, I'd buy a P3 or a Blade or some other cool tri bike. Also, if I ever decide to focus on short course, I might get a pure tri bike, since comfort isn't as important when I'm only riding for an hour or so.

Decide road vs. tri first, then see what fits (this part is hard and can be expensive), then focus on frame materials etc. Get the best frame and fork you can afford.

That advice and $4.50 will get you a decaf soy mocha latte in a paper cup with no refills.

- Get a fitting done before you start looking at bikes.
- Use the information from your fitting to find the bikes with a geometries that most closely match your needs.
- Pick based on your budget and the bike's appearance.

The differences everyone talks about are so minute that you might as well not bother worrying about them. For example, my Specialized S-Works (stiff aluminum) feels pretty much the same as my Look KG386 (carbon) when I throw a carbon seat post and race wheels on both. These feel pretty much the same as my Ciocc did (steel), my Orbea did (aluminum), my Bianchi does (steel) and my Coppi did (aluminum).

The bike is just a dumb vehicle. The important part is you.

Material makes a huge difference in frame...no it doesn't. - sure it does, but you can make any material feel like about anything, weight and what not. You sure can make Ti as stiff as Al...but at what weight? You can make steel as light as carbon, but how stiff will it be and how long will it last? Al...you can tune and tune and tune, but how long will it last and stiff will it be? The one material that is probably the best in every world is Carbon - you can make it do anything - and be light about it.


Steep is better than slack....no it isn't - this is much like religion, what works for one person does not for another. Sure you can get a super aero back crunching position and save some time...but at what cost? How much time are you really going to save over 140+ miles? The best position for you is the one that you are best in. Not everyone is a cycling contortionist.

Make sure it fits...you can be fit on almost any bike - sure, if the frame is your size, and the top tube is the right length, and stem and on and on. Hell I could fit on a 50cm frame with a long enough steer tube, stem and seat post...ever see the "Bike E"?

A Tri bike is the way to go...no it's not - I would say for MOST people who are MOP - BOP a Tri bike is not the way to go. If you want to qualify and seconds count...sure get a full on Tri bike. If looks are important, get a Tri bike...if you want to train and race and be comfortable for 112 miles, hang out with buddies, and be an average IronMan hero...I would go Road bike.

A tri bike will make a novice faster/more comfortable/faster in the run....no it won't/no it won't/no it won't - a Tri bike will NOT make a novice faster, though it may freak them out and cause a novice to crash while veering wildly around the road on the aero bars.

Not to be pissy but how in the hell is a guy supposed to make a desicion about a bike when few if any people agree on the facts!? - Facts? Hell facts on bicycles are like assholes...

Or is buying a bike like swim technique? There are few facts and pretty much everything is preference and finding out what works for you? - yup, and what we will all agree on is talking to someone like Tom who has seen it all, sold it all and does infact know what is best - and will sell you the right thing if it comes to that. Bikes are like cars, I love it when someone tells me that they LOVE Chevy - and hate Pontiac. Or that they wont drive an import - from their made in Mexico Chrysler.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

No problem at all. Just buy a Cervelo. Lots of agreement here on that. :)

Seriously - Can't stress getting the right size frame enough. I'm a strong believer that if you're new to cycling and only going to have one bike, then always get a road bike first.

Buy American! and get fitted! I was steep, got professionally fitted (for same Kestrel Talon), they put me in slacker position(not steep, road geometry) and now im faster on bike and run. I know that doesnt make sense, but it works for me. So the bottom line is get fitted and buy American Carbon:) of course I think my American Bike was made in Asia, but Its been very very good to me! Its not rocket science.

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-----------------------:)
SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

"Or, find someone you trust who buys bikes for a living and follow their instructions."

But isn't "trust" a little like Alchemy here? Seems to me that an experianced individual in a field follows "laws" and rules. In most cases "experts" agree, unless of course they have something to gain by "disagreeing", I.E. lawyers, infomercials etc.

Say in my field for instance. When I meet with someone from my field and we are discussing what product to use, how big to make something, material to use etc etc. There's rarely completely opposing views, and even disagreements can be solved via a few calculations to figure out who's right. Plain and simple most "experts" follow and know the "industries" laws, rules and regs. If this were not the case it would be difficult if not impossible to consistantly make things. We have specs, reams and reams of procedures. This does not seem to be true in the bike world.

In fact in the bike world, similar to swimming, we have "Experts" having different, sometimes opposing views, even claiming that their opponents view simply won't work or doesn't matter.

I have no problem trusting an "expert", in fact do it often. But in my case my "experts" have been defined, can be tested and can prove their results and methodology. I don't see that in the bike world.

Instead however I see alot of this...

" Buy several bikes using different techniques and taking everyone's advice, then base your opinions on the outcome."

~Matt

After just going through the same thing myself I feel that I can chime in... I am new to Tri, but am extremely competitive and never one to cheap out on stuff that is supposed to make me go faster or stuff that looks cool (the look is everything right guys?), and I ended up with a road bike.

I really wanted to buy a Tri bike because of all of the reasons that I'm sure you have heard, plus they are MUCH cooler looking. I went with a road bike for several reasons:

1. I will always be able to use a road bike for casual rides with friends and group rides while training.

2. You can get a lot more bike for less money if you do your homework and find a deal (I was able to get a Trek 2100 for about $1,000).

3. It gave me an instant excuse to buy a Killer Tri bike in a couple of seasons.

It's always nice to have a "daily driver" before you go out and get the race car.

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This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. - Fight Club
Industry Brat.

"But isn't "trust" a little like Alchemy here?"

No, the person either has an established track record or they don't.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"No, the person either has an established track record or they don't."

Record of what? Really I'm not trying to be an ass here just trying to understand. A record of happy customers? A record of good sales? What? In all your years of fitting and selling you've never had a person that went elsewhere and had anotehr "expert" change your fit or say you'd have been better on "X" bike?

~Matt

First thanks for responding in such detail, second I have the tendency to agree with you on everything except possibly material. I can't find the link or thread but a while ago someone had a fairly decent test for frame deflection as well as frame failure. If I'm not mistaken some of Ti bikes failed significatly earlier than the Al ones. Deflection, and potentially comfort, was more a function of design than material. I believe the conclusion if that thread was tire pressure would have more of an effect than material on level of comfort assuming two competant designs. And now the contradictions...

I'm gonna pick on Tom because you mentioned him and seems to be the resident expert...

"A Tri bike is the way to go...no it's not - I would say for MOST people who are MOP - BOP a Tri bike is not the way to go. If you want to qualify and seconds count...sure get a full on Tri bike. If looks are important, get a Tri bike...if you want to train and race and be comfortable for 112 miles, hang out with buddies, and be an average IronMan hero...I would go Road bike."

From an article from Tom's sight here http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/bikes/difference.shtml

"Many people think (incorrectly) a triathlon bike is only good for riding in triathlons. As we will see, this is not correct. Triathlon bikes are well suited for any type of long distance road riding where comfort and efficiency are the primary concern."

"There is less distance between the thigh and the torso at the top of the pedal stroke. These two changes mean the bike becomes less comfortable. Because of the close proximity of the femur (thigh) to the torso (chest/stomach/abdomen) at the top of the pedal stroke (10 o’clock to 2 o’clock pedal position) the rider will feel too "cramped"."

"A tri bike will make a novice faster/more comfortable/faster in the run....no it won't/no it won't/no it won't - a Tri bike will NOT make a novice faster, though it may freak them out and cause a novice to crash while veering wildly around the road on the aero bars."

" An additional benefit is improved running performance off the bike as compared to riding a standard road bike and getting off to run. Lower back muscles are less cramped and fresher for the bike/run transition. Your transition from bike to run will be easier, especially in the first 1-2 miles of the run. "

" Entry level cyclists will benefit the greatest from a triathlon geometry bike. It is not unusual for a customer who is riding 40 kilometers (24.8 miles) in 1:10:00 on a standard road frame equipped with aero bars to switch to a triathlon frame and be able to do 40 kilometers in 1:04:00. "

Although Tom did mention the crash aspect as well...

" This is testimony to the versatility of the triathlon bike, but also an acknowledgement of its limitations as there are occasional crashes which can be attributed (in some part) to the handling limitations of triathlon bikes. "

Locally, Chip you're about as close to an "expert" as they come...sad to say about the area, but it's true. On this point and likely others, escpecially on P3's, you're in conflict with other experts. Not only that but I'd say you're opinion is inline with many other "Experts" of Tom's level as well. So you can definately see my confusion and frustration.

I think in the end this will be more like buying running shoes than relying on an expert. The first pair of shoes I bought worked fine, but not the best, but they were "expertly" fitted. My 20th pair of shoes I bought based on all of the knowledge I'd collected about running and particularly my body and running, pretty much without the expert.

I suspect I will end up following the same path of trial and error with bikes. Eventually I will be able to know what fits *ME* and works for *ME*. I will be my expert.

I think that my approach to this will be that there are few facts to go from. I will go by feel, and rough guidlines for fit. Hopefully I'll get to ride teh bikes I'm interested, despite that not being the best method either, and then comile and make a desicion.

In the it's about getting out and riding. I think even if I make a poor desicion I can "make it work". Maybe not a world class fit, but I'm not world class athlete.

~Matt

I do have a "daily driver", just a not so good one.

None the less even with a daily driver the question of "what's the best bike still remains.

I'm actually leaning toward the road bike again simply becasue of the "bang for your buck". For a little over 2K a guy can get into a fairly steep, carbon framed, Ultegra 10 unit. The FeltF2C frame is only a smudge different than there tri frames and can be had with Dura Ace in carbon for 2500$ or so.

It's all very confusing....

~Matt

Ummm, like I said. Find someone you trust (who is accountable) and follow their instructions.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

If you can't tell...I have trust issues.

As a small child... [fade to small child in dirty garage]

I don't know about trust but I respect your's and several other opinons, like Chips. It's that often those opinions conflict.

If I went to a doctor and he said, "We're going to have to drill a hole in your head". I'd get a second opinion, probably a third or fourth. If those four opinions agreed, guess what, I'd have another hole in my head. If they were very conflicting, say a 2/2 split I probably wouldn't.

Seems like almost everything ends up with a 2/2 split where bikes are concerned.

~Matt

when i decided i wanted to be a triathlete, i looked on the internet for the best looking bike i could find (i only knew the names of about 3 manufacturers). i bought a cannondale multisport bike that looked cool over the phone with my lbs, guessed my frame size based on the mt. bike i had and assumed it would be fine. who knew anything about fit? the first time i rode the bike was the first time i was on skinny tires in 10 years, first time with bar end shifters and first time in the aero position. i fell and flatted on the same ride.

5 years later, i've been retro-fitted on the bike by paul levine (best fitter on the east says slowman), completed 3 ironmans and many other shorter tris and dus. i still love the bike. it fits well, rides well and i'm happy. do i pine for a new cervelo? sure. but i doubt it would make me any faster.

Paralysis of analysis.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Funny you say that as I was thinking of naming this thread that instead.

Over thinking is bad habit of mine. I should just get fitted and buy "What I like" and move on. I'm not getting any faster thinking about it.

~Matt

You're a good sport about it though and your dilligence does have merit. Also, this is a good thread. I appreciate it.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Matt,

I think what Tom is saying is get your ass in your car and drive to Dearborn. Hell, it's only like 375 miles one way. Barring that buy a bike that "feels" like the right fit, but more importantly that excites you and will get you on it more often. Small changes can be made after you have the bike and put some time in it. Me, I'm poor so I had to buy a used bike and swap out the stem, and saddle and with about a week's worth of tinkering had it in a position that is very comfortable and seems to be right. Could it be better? Absolutely, but I don't have the money to make it better so I'll deal with it as it is.

Not to make your decision any more difficult, but you can buy a bike that fits perfectly and then you become less or more flexible, etc and the fit should be modified to adjust for it.

First I will say, I drove 8 hours each way to visit Tom and be fitted, so my comments may be biused (sp?). There have been threads here about getting a coach, and I think this kind of goes along those lines. We can experiment with our training for years, but a "good, qualified" coach can make adjustments to bring on quicker results.

When I drove up to Dearborn, I had in my head the bike I wanted/needed. But I was not going to make that kind of trip to tell the "experts" they were wrong and I was right. So I just listened, swallowed my pride, and bought exactly what they recommended. In the end, I feel good on my Saber, and most importantly, I can run well having ridden it for several hours. This year we will see if it makes a big difference in my races.

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Michael

How far from Western Michigan U are you? I am heading out this weekend to watch a buddy in a College race...maybe I could pay you to fit me on the P3?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I am not in conflict with "Experts" on my P3...just might not be the bike for me. Maybe I should have got a Kuota, Felt, Aegis, Trek, kestrel, Litespeed, Elite and on and on...the P3 is a great bike, cant deny that...maybe just not "my" great bike. Additional fitting may very well change that however.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

"I should just get fitted and buy "What I like" and move on."

Yep.