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Re: Auckland thoughts? [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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4) Philip Graves had a decent swim and managed to catch up the lead group on his own in remarkable fashion. It destroyed his legs and he DNF-ed, but shows his potential as a domestique for Rio. //

I didn't get to see the race, so do not know what Phillip's role was. Did he do work for Johnny once in the group? If so, then it makes sense that he did not run, after all it is not the job of a domestique to finish a race, but to affect it long before the run comes..
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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He didn't do any work for Brownlee once he bridged the gap. He went a long way alone just to even get up to that lead pack then looked to just hang off the back once he was there. Brownlee was at the middle/front for most of the bike.

Graves just seemed gassed after making his way back to the lead group.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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mag900 wrote:
scott8888 wrote:
Its hard to directly compare the mens and womens times because the race strategies are completely different. There is no one in women's field who can run faster than Gwen so there is little impetus to try and run the outright fastest time. Instead women's 10km often has more the feel of a T&F championship race strategy where tactics mean you are unlikely to see superfast overall times. The lack of a single clear dominant runner on the men's side, combined with Brownlee/Gomez hard racing preferences, limits tactical racing. The current women's field is comparable to the men's field of a few years ago when you remove Gwen, Brownlees and Gomez. The big drop off in running times from the leaders to most of the field was tactical rather than talent.


Why does Gwen have "little impetus" to try and run the fastest time? Which races are you watching where the women are jogging for much of the 10K and then finish with a blistering end? Certainly not WTS ones because I can't recall a single one that resembled a T&F championship race with no rabbits where the leaders dawdle at a pedestrian pace for much of the race until someone finally decides to make a move. Gwen is running hard out of T2 (and not slowing down) and the other top women also are running hard out of T2 and continuing with very hard efforts (even if their hard efforts are over a minute slower than Gwen's).

Because she has to race for the next 5.5 months to win another world championship. There is zero reason to run hard once she knows she has won. At that pace she ran yesterday she very well may have not been running hard the last couple laps. The goal is to win races and win the Series Championship. The goal isn't to win the fastest run for the day. By backing off 5-10% those last to laps she's able to get back to training significantly faster.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Well she kept on running hard and extending the lead after she took it. She obviously backed off at the very end but she won by 1:38. that's not taking the pedal off the gas very much, particularly given how hard she swam and biked and how much the hills on the bike had to have taken their toll. She had every impetus to run the fastest time and win the race, which is exactly what she did. It's bizarre you would think that she doesn't have any impetus to have the fastest run split. Note that that is very different than the fastest run split that she is capable of on that given day.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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Her aim is surely to win. Not necessarily run the fastest split.
Nobody was in sight behind her so why would you kill yourself running flat out ?

Once the win is secure - you back down. She's a professional and the season is long.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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Race strategies looked the same to me. There were some athletes who could run fast and some couldn't, in both mens and women's. Some athletes rode harder than others as a result on the bike. Fairly simple.

Looking at the drop off in the top 10 of mens and women's, I stand by my point. Those girls are struggling with mastering the 10km run. In the mens you had to run a 32 to be in the top 10. A 38 snook in the top 10 in the women's.

Different dynamics in terms of break aways, not different strategies.

As I said last week after New Plymouth, the rest of the world better take note of the US. A 34 10km and 2 athletes coming in at 35minutes in the top 20. The focus is so Gwen at the mo, we (the rest of the world) may quite likely hand you guys a clean sweep of the Rio podium if we're not careful.
Last edited by: Salmon Steve: Mar 29, 15 11:23
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [C_Hassard] [ In reply to ]
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Tom Bishop looks like a good domestique if they want to go that route.....great front pack swim yesterday, worked hard on the bike with Jonny and placed 13th. It's hard to see how someone who's not swimming front pack can be any use to the Brownlees, but maybe Phil Graves has some ITU swim magic that we haven't seen yet.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [trival] [ In reply to ]
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Phil Graves was in the top third on the swim, which is respectable (a long way ahead of Mola for example) and if a Brownlee was to have a puncture, then Graves would be able to bring him back to the front group, which Bishop could not. But it is early days and this was Phil's first Olympic distance race for five or more years.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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I have so much respect for JB and Gomez. Seeing them pushing the pace in the swim, bike and run is impressive. Seeing those two driving the lead bike pack was awesome.

Gwen is an amazing athlete also, but not in the same way. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that her bike strategy is just to tuck in and let others do all the work, so she can blitz them on the run, tempers my enthusiasm a little. It certainly works for her though. Lisa Norden was her personal domestique this time.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder why nobody from the second pack joined Graves on his solo mission to bridge the gap? Maybe he was just going balls out on the bike to impress the team GB selectors?
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [pdraegs] [ In reply to ]
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pdraegs wrote:
I wonder why nobody from the second pack joined Graves on his solo mission to bridge the gap? Maybe he was just going balls out on the bike to impress the team GB selectors?

In his words on FB:

THAT HURT! Very disappointed i couldn't run, i was on my KNEES after solo chase for 10k & made some awful mistakes but great to be in there!

My guess is that nobody else had the balls to basically TT that 10K with him to catch the leaders. At least Brownlee could duck into the pack every once in awhile and get a rest while leading the charge up front. Graves was all out with no rest that 10K. There weren't many in the race that could have done that.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [mag900] [ In reply to ]
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I was watching the race live and something that struck me was just how small Henri Schoeman is. For one of the best swimmers, he is tiny. Pre race, he walked past and I thought he could have been one of the 13 year old boys who did the super sprint race.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [pdraegs] [ In reply to ]
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pdraegs wrote:
I wonder why nobody from the second pack joined Graves on his solo mission to bridge the gap? Maybe he was just going balls out on the bike to impress the team GB selectors?

It looked like Viain of France was on his wheel briefly when Graves broke from the pack - evidently Viain couldn't keep it.

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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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The ORB wrote:
I have so much respect for JB and Gomez. Seeing them pushing the pace in the swim, bike and run is impressive. Seeing those two driving the lead bike pack was awesome.

Gwen is an amazing athlete also, but not in the same way. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that her bike strategy is just to tuck in and let others do all the work, so she can blitz them on the run, tempers my enthusiasm a little. It certainly works for her though. Lisa Norden was her personal domestique this time.
this

Gwen is an amazing runner but doesn't do any work on the bike. That's working for her as she gets to win relatively easily. The other girls need to work the front bike pack much better than they did yesterday. Watching live it looked as they just didn't want to push it and so hopefully fry Gwen's legs or leave her 2-3mins down.

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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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So your faulting her for racing smart?
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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Not faulting her, just an observation that she is not as complete an athlete as those top men.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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It's all tactics.

Gwen knows that there is no one in the women's field that can run with her. Thus she has no reason to push the pace on the bike if she's in the lead group. When she hasn't made the lead bike group she works to minimize the time difference.

Compare that to the men's field. The Brownlees and Gomez are the most compete athletes but they also realize that if they don't make others hurt on the bike they'll have a chance to run with them. Thus, they push the pace and try to burn up as many folks as possible leaving it to them to dual it out.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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Even when she wasn't in the lead bike group, she didn't take any pulls to catch up though. She relied entirely on Norden and co.
It was almost as if she knew others would burn themselves out to catch the lead group.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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The ORB wrote:
Even when she wasn't in the lead bike group, she didn't take any pulls to catch up though. She relied entirely on Norden and co.
It was almost as if she knew others would burn themselves out to catch the lead group.

No the key point was she knew they would catch - that is all that was important for her. If she knew they would catch, regardless of what the others do to get there....its game over as far as Gwen is concerned at the moment.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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That's ridiculous. She is as complete athlete as any of them, she just knows her strengths and races to those. if you think riding at the back of that first group that came into t2 was easy, you need to go look at some ITU power files.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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The ORB wrote:
Even when she wasn't in the lead bike group, she didn't take any pulls to catch up though. She relied entirely on Norden and co.
It was almost as if she knew others would burn themselves out to catch the lead group.

If those fast cycling girls don't pull Gwen back, they don't get to compete for the win either...

and yeah, it was pretty obvious to anyone watching that Gwen wasn't running her hardest, but (even more obviously) that's a really good thing.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I think a dynamic that is overlooked is that this season there are 10 WTS races, even with the inclusion of a number of Sprint races this is a little execessive. Apart from the WTS Grand Final and the Rio Test event many athletes will go into the race not on a full race-taper.

Gomez likes to race A LOT! When it comes to the business end of the season he will be firing. In the same vein a lot of people will be targeting decent results to ensure starts for their federations early olympic selection races (Rio and Chicago for many, Australia included) that's when they will be firing.

On a personal note it was a real shame to see Ron Darmon crash badly and injure himself, he's in my squad and a real shot at an olympic spot for Isreal (with top 10s at Mooloolaba and New Plymouth). Speedy recovery.

In regards to Mola's run, it appeared like Blummenfeld and Mola were doing almost all of the work in that second bike pack, lots of passengers!!

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Re: Auckland thoughts? [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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It'd be interesting to see how she'd do in a non drafting race, where she couldn't suck wheel for 40k.
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Re: Auckland thoughts? [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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don't think it is as simple as that. there is a level of fitness required that gets you in that group.


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Re: Auckland thoughts? [moneydog59] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously she is a tremendous athlete. She's a decent swimmer, a world class runner and not a bad cyclist by any means. Just not in the same class as true complete tri legends like Gomez and the Brownlees. In my humble opinion of course.
Having said that I can't see anyone beating her in the current field. None of the elite female swimmers seem to have the bike talent to keep the pack at bay.
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