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As Promised, PC results
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Years 2001, 2002, 2003.

I used the 1pt/100 yard swimming, 1pt/mile biking and 4pts/mile running value system to keep up with total workload per day, week, month for all three years.

I know these monthly point totals are puny by many people's standards, but, it's all I had time to do. I'm certainly not a pro, I'm just having fun staying in shape. In 2001, I averaged 585 pts./month, with 240 points from running. In 2002, I averaged almost the same, 590, but with a little more swimming. In 2003, I averaged 570, but with only 120 points from running. Swimming pts. stayed the same again this year, but the extra points came from riding on PowerCranks. I started riding PowerCranks on December 20th, 2002. Low monthly point totals for all three years was right at 300 points, high monthly point totals for all three years was right at 650 pts. Average weight in 2001 was 184, % body fat 8.2. 2002: weight 182, body fat 8%. 2003: weight 181, 8%.

Results:

2001, best 10 mile TT was 23.21mph...I did 4 of them. 2002, same course best 10 mile TT was 24.4mph...I did 4 of them. 2003, same course, only made it out there once, 25.05 mph, and I had ridden 23 miles and run 8 miles the day before...so I wasn't rested at all, and felt tired...still, it was a PR.

AMEX race in March 2001, average bike speed 19mph, 5K run pace/mile: 8:15. 2002, bike speed 19.5mph, 5K run 8:14. 2003, bike speed 21.07mph, 5K run 6:51. Fourth place.

Latta race: 2001, bike speed 19.05, run 8:19. 2002 bike speed 20.25, run 7:59. 2003 bike speed 22.08, run 7:10 (Very bad conditions today cold and raining hard, run course was changed from road in 2001 and 2002 to a muddy trail in 2003). Fifth place.

Lake Norman race: 2001 bike speed 20.24, run 7:48. 2002 bike speed 22.63, run 8:10. 2003 bike speed 23.4, run 6:45 (however, the run was changed in 2003 to a flatter course, the bike courses were unchanged). Second place.

Morganton race: 2001-not done, 2002 bike speed 18.23 (Very hilly!), run 7:05. 2003, bike speed 20.3, run 6:40. Second Place, fastest run in AG.

Over the Mountain race: 2002 bike speed 19.56, run 7:40. 2003 bike speed 20.6, run 7:25. Third place.

Mooresville race: 2003: bike speed 22.7, run before the bike 6:45, run after the bike 6:57. Won Master's division, second fastest bike split of field.

There were several other races that I did which weren't noted, because I had no other races to compare them to, but I had the fastest bike split in AG in one, finished 4th in my first half ironman (39th fastest run of the field), and my worst finish was 8th in my second half ironman while suffering from several days of GI illness before and during the race (had an extra 4'31" transition time behind a tree during the run...not fun).

Was my improvement due to PowerCranks? Was it due to cutting my running in half? Was I just due to get off a plateau? The improvement doesn't seem to be due to a change in body composition, although I did cut back on lifting weights in 2003, and although my weight and % body fat numbers don't show it, I did re-arrange my muscle distribution in 2003. There is no scientific way to tell what did the trick for me, but, I'll be out there on my PC's, because that's what I think made the big difference.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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Yaquicarbo (and Frank Day),

Great info - I like hearing about this stuff - I find it quite useful.

Very impressive overall times and very impressive run improvements - that was a big jump after PC's! Especially since you must only be cycling like 100 miles/week (if I calculate your point system correctly...). Are you working out about 10 hours/week on average?

Can you lend me some insight into what to expect when I start using PC's. I'm going to try them this December/January. I live in a snowy land so I'll be doing most of my rides for the first 3-4 months on a CT indoors. Ride everyday? How long to build to an hour? How long until you can ride 2-3 hours? I know there are vast differences between people but average? How much guidance does Frank give (Frank - please feel free to comment)? Frank always talks about people using them as they are supposed to be used - what does that mean?

Cadence effects? I like to ride at least 95-105 though I am starting to try and bring that down to 90-95. I have very little leg strength currently - no significant x-country ski experience - likely have weak hip flexors - can run 2 hours pretty steady. Raced a couple 1/2 IM's this season (30-2:55-1:45 splits roughly on fairly easy courses - Vineman and Big Kahuna) Can you remind me how your bike cadence changed from 2001 to 2003 and did your running style/cadence change at all?

Where did you get or how did you devise that point system? Whats it based on/for?

Thanks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, ride everyday (or, at least, 5-6 days a week).

Should take about a week to get to an hour on them although you will have to rest occasionally during that hour. It will take a lot longer to be able to pedal continuously for an hour.

2-3 hours 2-4 weeks on the road. That is really hard on the trainer. Some never get to that.

Kiss off 95 cadence for about a season, at least while you are on the PC's, except for brief periods when you are testing yourself and your progress. If it is important to you to get your cadence back up and you put your mind to it you could do it in 2-3 months.

"Supposed to" means all the time except for races. No regular cranks ever again, except for races. Very few go that far but a lot now are close. the more you ride them the faster you will improve and the better you will get overall.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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Great report and results Yaqui.

Let's see if you see similar improvements next year also. That is my usual prediction. Big improvements for 2 years then they start to slow down. You have one more year.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
You do not say what pedaling style (if any) you
were using before starting on the PC's.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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Dave, I rode them 95% of the time, mostly on the trainer for a couple of weeks. I found that it is "easier" to ride them on the road, because I got a much-needed rest break going downhill. You are correct, I only ride an average of about 100 miles/week. Ride them every day if possible. At first, you may need to ride 2-3 times a day in order to get a significant amount of time per day....because 15 or 20 minutes at a time may be all you can do. I rarely could stay on them an hour on the trainer...I just need the rest that downhills provide. It took me several months to get up to a 4 hour ride...which I did 4-5 times the past year...the last hour was misery every time, but I did keep improving. I used to be a 108 cadence person...that's where I "felt" the best. However, a coach pointed out to me that I would be faster closer to 90 rpm, and he was right. PC's forced me to ride in the lower 80's (well, at first PC's forced me to ride in the mid-60s to mid-70's!), where I am faster still. Many people say you just have to bite the bullet and train at the higher cadences and you'll adapt...that's probably true, but at my low mileage/week and limited time available, I did the best I could. That point system has been around a while...it's just a way to keep up with your total aerobic workload...it's not precise, because my aerobic workload while swimming 100 yards is much higher than it's supposed to be! PC's didn't touch my swimming times...my only complaint about them. I'm going to swim faster next year, though, I've just moved to another state and joined a pool right across from my work...all I have to do is cut a few minutes off of my swim and I'll win a race or two next year.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. I may have 2 more years of improvements, because my total mileage per week is so much lower than what "most" triathletes seem to be doing...or, they are exaggerating their workout mileage. I hear of weekly point totals approaching my monthly point totals! We'll see... I really appreciate the way you helped me out with advice this past year, it always turned out the way you said it would. Just a note, I had a bout of achilles tendonitis this past year, caused by a faulty heel counter in a shoe, or I think I could have done even better...I really threw a kink in my training back in April/May.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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My pedalling style was one I kept from the old days of road racing...one that appeared to be very smooth at 108 rpms. A local coach that worked with George Hincapie, and currently works with Pat McCallion and Chris Harkey (two of the better national riders) pronounced my pedal stroke to be smoother than 95% of the riders he's ever seen. That was before PC's. I immediately found out that I'd been artificially smoothing out my stroke when I got on PC's. So, I was smooth, but I wasn't nearly as efficient, because I'd use backpressure to attenuate the strong downstroke, making the stroke smooth...as soon as PC's removed the ability to apply any backpressure, I surged the resistance trainer flywheel as unsmoothly as anyone ever has. It was a real eye-opener. PC's can help diagnose pedal stroke flaws (missed by a very experienced coach). I've gradually become smoother again as my hip flexors gained the ability to keep up, until I get tired, of course. Maybe next year my hip flexors will gain the ability to do more than just keep up with my extensors. We'll see.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

I have started using PC's in august this year.
Since I could not ride for more then 10 minutes on them at first (and that was built up as 5 blocks of 2'with a 30'' test in between!), and I didn't want to cut back on my normal training volume (about 300-400 km on the bike and 15km running, weekly ), I decided to use a very slow build-up with the PC's. I have used them only indoors sofar, and by now I can manage about 8 intervals of 5' (40' in total). I have reached this level with about 3 short sessions a week, starting with 5x 2' and ending at 8x5' this week. I did not have to cut in any of my 'normal' training, I just added the PC workout.
I feel I am now ready to take it further, I will use the PC's from now on to ride to work and back, equalling about 5 hours weekly. I expect this will be a struggle for the first month, but I think I have enough 'base strength' built up with the indoor sessions to handle this load without getting injured.
Even though I have not trained for much on the PC's yet, I have noticed that it is easier for me to maintain a fluid 'round' pedalling technique when on my normal bike, especially at lower speeds.

So, instead of totally comitting your training to the PC's to get a lot of progress in a short time, you might consider building it up slowly, so that your other trainig will not be affected. I believe this will reduce the risk of injuries. When you feel comfortable, or you feel the short sessions don't 'do' anything for you anymore, you can upgrade to long rides outdoors.

Good luck,

Ron (from the Netherlands)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Ron G.] [ In reply to ]
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Along the same lines.. What do you think about just using the PC part time, and keeping up with your normal training plan otherwise? Or is it best to just bite the bullet and sacrifice your other bike training?

S 36
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Re: As Promised, PC results [neelyjp] [ In reply to ]
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the potential problem there is that you will not asimilate what it is the PC's are trying to teach you. PC's will reshape your pedalling from the ground up - if you just dabble with them you may get that reversed - - you may be trying to make PC's somehow help you when you are not giving them the chance to actually do what they do. or something like that.

remember, it is not a given that your miles will suffer at all. mine didn't, and i was in the long miles phase of Im prep when i started. persoanlly i think a big reason people DO suffer so much at first is because they TRY to ride like before, instead of adopting fully to what the PC's are initially demanding. low cadence. raise the bars. return to higher cadence and lower position as you are able. just some ideas.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [neelyjp] [ In reply to ]
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Hello there,

I've been riding PowerCranks since mid-July and here are some observations.

If you are doing shorter distance races and/or don't have a lot of time to train, then I say you should only ride PCs. If you really work at getting your rpms back up to the 80-90 rpm, then your cycling workouts will be brutal. Your average speed goes up and you cover more distance, but it really trashes you. If you start using them in the middle of the season and are racing IM distance then I think you have to ride some of each or you just won't have enough miles.

With the whole winter ahead of you, then there is no reason to do anything but PowerCrank until spring. I started riding for 45-60 minutes every morning on the indoor trainer and hope to be able to maintain that through the winter. I can now maintain (after three months of strict powercrank use) about 75-85 rpm on the trainer and I am working at doing it comfortably in the aero position, which requires an entirely new adaptation.



Crank length can determine how fast you are able to adapt as well. I bought 180mm PCs to match my race bike and the length, especially in the aero position, can really kick your behind. Shorter arms might be easier to adapt to than my beast, or it might not make a difference because the length is relative.



One last thought. I found that in the two tri’s I did late fall my rpm might have actually been higher than pre-PC. I think it had to do with the fact that I unweight the upgoing leg and thus, the downgoing leg actually accelerates faster than before. In the end I went about three minutes faster on the bike and did it riding fewer miles.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [neelyjp] [ In reply to ]
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Many people have and continue to do use PC's part time. they also report benefit. However, they do not seem to report the BIG benefits that those that use them "exclusively" report. I recommend the exclusive approach because I think it is the way of getting the most out of the product both as soon as possible and in the long run.

If someone thinks they have a better way, I am all ears. Of course, I would like to see some evidence. If anyone out there used them part time and then got better results and faster results than Yaqui, speak up.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Let me add one more thing.

Clearly, there has to be some variation in how to best use them. For instance, when Levi Leipheimer got and started using his 6 weeks before the TDF, even I didn't recommend he take a cold turkey approach to them.

My recommendaations are what I consider to be the best "in general" and people should strive to use them as much as possible, as soon as possible, as their race schedule will allow.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the great report Yaquicarbo. I have a few questions. What type of condition were you in when you started tracking these numbers in 2001? Obviously you have shown great improvement, but I'm wondering how much of that is due to building a stronger base over 2 years and how much of it is actually attributable to the PC's? I realize from your scoring method that your trying to show that you haven't ramped up your overall training volume just shifted it more towards the bike. If you follow Gordo's philosophy, then improving your endurance on the bike will inherintly improve your run times because you won't be as fatigued when you hit the run. I have shown similar improvement in my race times without PC's because I had a very low base to begin with. Also, have you changed your diet, volume of sleep, volume of recovery, started training with a coach? I'm interested in PC's, and appreciate your report. I just think it is so hard with all the variables to pinpoint the actual gain derived from them. Regardless, your program is obviously working for you...congrats on your fantastic improvement!

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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on the back of a napkin, in the 4 races you did all 3 years, I get a 6.5% improvement from '01 to '02 and a 6.0% improvement from '02 to '03. Amazing run improvements though.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [mr. mike] [ In reply to ]
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If you are referring to speed improvement, a 6% increase in speed calculates to about a 20% increaase in power, about half of what we claim is "typical".

What was the point, the speed improvement was not very much? While I think it is possible many customers may see more improvement, a 20% increase in power is substantial. The question is, which cannot be answered is, What would he have done without the PC's? Most users think the PC's do something for them beyond what they could do without them but none are able to quantitate it.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Andy] [ In reply to ]
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Andy, you are absolutely correct, there are lots of variables. However, I've been exercising about the same since college football days...and that was 25 years ago. I still weigh what I weighed in college, although I'm no longer a sprinter! It's not that I came off the couch and started in 2001, I haven't swam a whole lot and stuck to running, riding and duathlons (and I won a few of those over the past years). Sleep? I have a 19 month old, so I wasn't getting MORE sleep! I did start eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for breakfast last year...it could be that. I don't actually scientifically "know" what to attribute my gains, but, I can tell you I "feel like I know" what it was...PC training. If nothing else, riding PCs demonstrated a big flaw in what was considered to be a good pedal stroke, and THEN...here's the best part....THEN PCs make you pedal in a certain way, no matter if you get tired, or if it gets cold or hot or if your riding partner is pulling away, etc. It's the constant reinforcement of a "rounder" stroke that makes the difference....in my opinion.

As far as running goes...PC riding made my running times better the first week. I didn't feel like my riding got much better until several months. That running benefit is almost instantaneous.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][reply]
If you are referring to speed improvement, a 6% increase in speed calculates to about a 20% increaase in power, about half of what we claim is "typical".

What was the point, the speed improvement was not very much? While I think it is possible many customers may see more improvement, a 20% increase in power is substantial. The question is, which cannot be answered is, What would he have done without the PC's? Most users think the PC's do something for them beyond what they could do without them but none are able to quantitate it.

Frank [/reply]

Let's take the winner of today's elite men's TT,
how could PC's improve his time or pedal power.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [mr. mike] [ In reply to ]
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The faster you go, the more percentage power you must put to the rear wheel, mostly due to wind resistance. There's not much difference in wind resistance from 15mph to 17 mph. There's a great deal more wind resistance difference between 21-23 mph. Getting above 25 mph, like I did, isn't world class at all, but, it ain't easy, especially on tired legs. As far as the race times you have to consider the higher bike speeds followed by the much higher run speed, and that's much more than a 6% improvement in 2003. I don't know the exact % improvement, though, and don't really care. I just care to finish more 1st and 2nds in 2004, rather than so many 4th and 5ths.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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I guess that was the point of my last post. Will PC's improve someone at the top of their game by how much they claim?

Also, regarding yaquicarbo's response to my post, if PC's helped you correct your pedal stroke, then couldn't you have accomplished the same thing using the spin scan on a computrainer?

I'm not attacking the product, just trying to get a handle on what has actually been proven to work.

As far as instantaneous improvement on the run, do you think that could be attributable to a positive mental attitude from using the PC's? You were told they would make you run better, you believed it, so you did run better as a result of your own previous training? I'm no physiologist, but from my limited knowledge of the human body, I don't think anything could reform/strengthen your body in a week....unless it maybe caused a change in your form which resulted in faster speed at the same power/aerobic output...

Thanks!

Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'
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Re: As Promised, PC results [perfection] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe this idea has some value. I don't really think I'm in any better cardiovascular shape than I was in 2001 or 2003. My resting HR is actually slightly higher this year. I think that the main thing, and maybe the only thing that happened was that I was able to learn to unweight the rising leg when pedalling. THis also had a secondary effect of helping my to pick my knees up better on the run. So, maybe I didn't generate any extra power with my extensors while pedalling, I just became much more efficient at getting that power to the wheel instead of using it to push my rising leg up. If a world class (or neighborhood class) cyclist has this kind of inefficiency, he might do better by training on PCs. If they already have this timing and efficiency in their stroke, they could hop right on PCs and pedal exactly as they always have, and they'd never even know they were on PCs, because they already have the stroke learned. That's extremely doubtful to me, though, especially as they tire. The only way to know is to get on a pair and see for yourself.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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"What was the point, the speed improvement was not very much?"

------------------

No, I think 6% is "pretty much" in my book. My point is that the improvement from '01 to '02 was similar to the improvement from '02 to '03.
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Re: As Promised, PC results [Andy] [ In reply to ]
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spin scan is fine. But, how do you know you're doing the best you can with spin scan...it's a bit of a guess...yes, that looks a little better, and that doesn't...hmmm...well so what? See, the thing is, I had GREAT spin scan numbers before...but it was by artificially making the stroke smoother by manipulating the way I pushed/resisted the pushing. PC's showed me this immediately. What I'm saying is that SMOOTHER is NOT necessarily BETTER. More efficient is the only indication of better. Spin scan can, and does, fool people. I'd have to say that my stroke now isn't nearly as smooth as before PC's. BUT, I think that I may be able to smooth it out the correct way over another year or two. BY that, I mean, smooth it out because I'm learning to actually pull up, not just pick up, the rising foot.

As far as running improvement, I wasn't expecting any big run improvement. It's just that at the end of my first week I went for a run and felt like a gazelle....a heavy gazelle, but, still, a gazelle. This improvement continued markedly for a while before leveling out. It wasn't a psychological effect. In fact, it might have been a reverse psychological effect...I felt so discouraged about riding on PC's on my trainer that I went for a run just to avoid the discouragement....boy was I pleasantly surprised!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: As Promised, PC results [yaquicarbo] [ In reply to ]
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Q for yaquicarbo...

Roughly what were your benchmark times for a 10k or 1/2 mary (standalone) before starting on the PCs?

The run improvement you've experienced has gotten my attention...I'm just curious whether it's "off the bike" improvement or "absolute" improvement.

Thanks!
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