Great line, but Lance contradicts you: “Truth is, a triathlete won the Tour de France seven times,” Armstrong said. - http://www.usatriathlon.org/...12-hall-of-fame.aspx

;)

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Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com

Kimmage wrote A Rough Ride. Joe Parkin wrote A Dog in a Hat.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Oh, right, sorry, read them back to back.

I was referring to Paul Kimmage's Rough Ride.

Kohl busted in dufferent tour

Correct.....and I'm sure that was the first time he had ever doped as well.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

x2.

Everyone was possibly doping, yes, and it was obviously a very serious problem for sport, not just cycling. It's still a serious problem, but why should we constantly bang on Lance for drug use when thousands of athletes still do it and probably millions did it in the '80's, '90's and 2000s? Although I'm opposed to drugs, I think this issue is between the individual and his doctor. If you want to regulate, then regulate the doctors and arrest the illegal purveyors of whatever is the drug du jour.

Meanwhile, Jamie Dimon will bet JP Morgan on all kinds of derivative shit, knowing full well that until the Volcker Rule is implemented, and even if it is implemented, his ass will be bailed out. As between Wall Street and Main Street Athletics I'll spend my time worrying about the crazies on Wall Street.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I don't accept "Everyone else was doing it" as an excuse from my kids when they do something wrong. I see no reason why I should have different standards for a professional athlete.

YMMV.

And, as has been pointed out, USADA is not an arm of the US government.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Unless Armstrong is charged, then there is no testimony. Without testimony, out of court statements offered in court for the truth of the matter asserted is the very definition of hearsay (except sworn depositions- which I don't think has been submitted by any of those three guys).

Without a trial, such testimony would violate Armstrong's Right of Confrontation if criminal sanctions are sought. Further, I think Lance could argue both Substantive and Procedural Due Process.

Since when does revoking a sporting title equate to "criminal" sanctions?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Kenney wrote:

Kohl busted in dufferent tour

True, but I swear at some point he admitted that he was doped when he couldn't hang on Floyd's wheel. In my unsuccessful search for this admission, I did find this article,
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/10/04/tour-de-france-not-winnable-without-drugs-former-rider-says/
which ended in an interesting quote from him:
"
Besides not wanting to have to compete dirty, Kohl said speeches like the one here would preclude a return anyway.

"I can never come back," Kohl said. "It's not possible if you say the truth."
"

On doping I'm a libertarian. ;) I don't think anyone should dope, but mainly because I worry about the health consequences. That's why I don't mind finishing last, as long as I finish, and I have finished last many many times. (Given the recent research, finishing last may have some actual health benefits anyway. ;) )

The war on drugs has been lost for many years. It's like Afghanistan, a lost cause, IMHO. I do appreciate the idea behind the war, but it's not practical. And WADA is simply wasting money, IMHO. And I don't care about Barry Bonds' home runs.....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

So, as a libertarian, you should then have no objection to two parties entering into an agreement of their choosing. In this case, such an agreement came with the understanding that doping products are not allowed in professional cycling.

Any analogies to the War on Drugs is not applicable, since we are not talking about a federal case.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

only a liberal could see the justification in spending millions of tax dollars to punish someone for something they may or may not have done a decade ago, in FRANCE which is out of their jurisdiction anyways.

Yes, I think the agreement should be upheld, and pros definitely should not dope as long as there is an agreement. But, WADA's scope is much more widespread. They want to prohibit people from smoking dope and doing sports. Some of this is just damn silly, and I don't care whose money it is, it's a waste of money and time.

I'm not a libertarian on many issues, but on this issue I think the best approach is for everyone to admit we aren't going to stop the drug trade at any level, even the pro level. Sport is all voluntary, as you point out, so why hedge it about with all these restrictions? And you can't reasonably and cheaply divide people up into users and non-users. If folks want to go the way of Lyle Alzado, so be it. There is only so much the nanny state can do and this is certainly one of the least pressing issues. I say we should kick WADA out of the ring and stop funding them. And no agreements to go drug free. We can assume they ALL use drugs, just as we now assume many use drugs. ;) Is it unfortunate that some pros who go drug free will lose to druggies? Yes. Maybe then the NY Times will actually cover triathlon? :) (NB: They did have a blurb about Lance's recent podium finish, much to my surprise.) Actually, maybe pro cycling should have a mandatory druggie division. ;) Now that would get some attention.

I'd rather the nanny state actually do something about the size and practices of banks too big to fail. America wastes a lot of psychic energy, time and money on stuff like gay marriage, the war on drugs, etc. and not enough on stopping wars, controlling awful businesses, and helping the ones who really need help. Just my humble opinion.

Just say no to the war on drugs.....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

cyclops wrote:

only a liberal could see the justification in spending millions of tax dollars to punish someone for something they may or may not have done a decade ago, in FRANCE which is out of their jurisdiction anyways.

This is USADA, not the Federal Gov. It is their job to governing doping in the sport. There case is based on direct witness testimony of events here in the US as well as Europe

Sounds like Slowtwitch should do some investigative journalism, contact someone at USADA, and get some answers to these lingering questions.

When you sign for your license in any WADA sanctioned sport you sign an agreement to compete under the WADA code. This agrement has been in place for most IOC sports for close to a decade

The head of WADA is for taking Marijuana off the banned list and has asked that it be brought up at their next meeting. It is not WADA's job to pursue recreational drugs


http://www.guardian.co.uk/...wada-cannabis-banned

X2

Yes, but I think WADA should be out of business. I also think the DEA should be out of the drug business, except possibly a few issues such as counterfeit prescription drugs. It doesn't matter how long the contract is if it's a stupid contract.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I believe you and thanks for the link. It always amazes me that so many people that are against doping hate Kohl. One of the very very few to tell the truth and they strung him up.

But could he swim ;o)

Obviously that doesn't not necessarily follow; however, the point was to connect the Rt of Confrontation with the Rule against Hearsay.

Have you read the WADA code? What part of it is stupid? If not WADA what independent agency should monitor doping in sport? Or should it just be a free for all, the most doped wins?

Exactly. The reality is that USADA has a different burden of proof than a federal criminal investigation. The testimony of Flandis, Ty-Ty, Frankie, George et al is likely enough for USADA to sanction Armstrong. To me, his statement was pretty much a PR move to get out in front of this reality. He knows USADA is gonna rule against him, so he comes out first and says "Meh...I don't care anymore. If others want to worry about the past, let 'em."

Fairly shrewd move, IMO.....

@ Robert - who gets to decide when a contract is "stupid"? If one side feels it is "stupid", theya re free to remove themselves from the agreement. But in this case, it means that they would need to withdraw from the sport of cycling under the UCI / IOC. They don't get ot unilaterally say "Well, I think this is stupid but you still have to let me race."

Suppose everyone decides to form a paceline up the Queen K in October because they think drafting rules are "stupid"......they can simply say "everyone else was doing it" and claim it was a stupid rule, right?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams