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Re: breaking hearts... [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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R10C wrote:
bjorn wrote:
No one is going to "give" anyone 10-15min on the bike. If he gets that kind of lead it will be because he's that much better. I'm surprised so many people think the guys in Kona just sits on the front soft pedaling deciding to let certain athletes disappear up the road.



Like you would know? Pfffffffffft!


Oh wait, Bjorn....um, I didnt mean to say that...

I don't know shit but I still like to think I can fool some people... (;




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
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Re: breaking hearts... [ddalzell] [ In reply to ]
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Holding back on peak form... Probably, but so is everyone else

Sandbagging... Seriously?
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Re: Armstrong's setting it up. [Zimzala1] [ In reply to ]
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I would say the chances of Lance playing those kinds of games is pretty high. He's already set that historical precedent. Its what he does.

Having said that, so are the other guys. And realistically even with his games I don't think he'll have what it takes for the win. He's just not showing it on the run...yet.

I think he's going to make it interesting...and tactics will be very interesting. I remember something being said about the motorcade of press sucking lance to a mega lead off the bike, which is certainly something to consider.

But lets be realistic. He'll be going up against the very best in the world at a race everyone will be tapered and amped for. Including some of the very best the sport has ever seen. For anyone to think that Lance is going to go in there and win this thing walking away is just plain ignorant. Does he have a chance, sure. So does Crowie and a host of other studs. A top 10 finish his first time out is damn respectable, and a top 5 would be beyond studly. Should the stars and moons align and he wins the whole thing...well it will certainly make for damn good television.

Most likely scenario:
Lance stays with the main pack on the swim.
Lance leads into T2.
Lance gets run down between miles 13-15.

________________
Blogging
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Re: Armstrong's setting it up. [Zimzala1] [ In reply to ]
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Zimzala1 wrote:
Is he holding back and moving into form ?

This line of reasoning/questioning/thinking seems to come up a lot with regards to Lance. So let me try to offer some insight. EVERYONE is moving into form. Nobody starts the year ready to win Kona. Even Crowie, who would have certainly peaked for Melbourne (followed by some recovery and now I'm sure he's back on his steady build to peak for Vegas & Kona), was almost certainly not at his very best for Melbourne. No one is holding back at these races. But they are certainly not racing as fast now as they will in a few months (depending on how they structure their seasons).

As a further aside, strong cyclists ALWAYS take their time in the back half (or 1/3) of the race. Chris Lieto took FOUR minutes out of the field in Vegas - at a championship race - after mile 40. Especially at St. Croix, where you do the mini loop of the course twice - once to start and once to finish - it's the logical place to take time out of people and it's also when, typically, the folks that have been pushing the pace start to slow down. That race really starts at the Beast. And it's not really a good risk:reward to push the pace in the middle section of the course. You can take your 1:50 out at the beginning if you want - like Bjorn used to do - but it usually take a lot more power to do so.

Basically, Lance is doing what every other pro does. He's getting fitter, honing his race tactics, and getting a feel for how he balances his output on the bike and how that affects the run (swim output is generally pretty constant). While I am certain it will not put an end to the speculation, Lance is preparing how any smart pro - which is what he is - prepares for a big race on a known date. Crowie also had cards to play on the bike that you didn't see until Kona, and Jacobs had matches on the run, and Bockel on bike and run, and Raelert and...

It'd be a very risky and, IMO, idiotic strategy to sandbag all of your races in hopes of surprising people at your second ever Ironman during a race that will play out completely different tactically and on a dramatically different course topographically and against a field several orders of magnitude deeper than your first ever Ironman. Lance is a master strategist, but he's also a 40 year old who's been away from the sport for 25 years. If you honestly believe he is that confident in his poker face, be my guest to speculate that there is something more than the obvious.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: breaking hearts... [beebs] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see what sandbagging would accomplish in this case. I don't see what sandbagging ever accomplished in the TDF. Sure he won at the TdF, but even when he sandbagged and then took off what did it get him?

As far as IM, he has shown he can swim with everyone but the uberswimmers. Anyone (Pro) that thinks he isn't the best biker in tri now is delusional. So the only question is how good a runner will he be in Kona. No way of knowing but what good does it do to know? If he is 15 minutes ahead of you at T2 or 2 minutes ahead, you better run your best marathon on the day you can, same as ever.

Styrrell
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Re: breaking hearts... [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The one difference between Lance and everyone else is that Lance doesn't have to race for his dinner. Lance is sitting on a fat bank account and is doing this for "fun". Now I'm not saying that he doesn't want to win, he clearly does otherwise he wouldn't be doing all of this. If his plan is to hold back his run and try to surprise people at Kona he can take that chance and hold back on his run. And in fact that would make a whole lot of sense to do if his one goal is to finish the best that he can at Kona...
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Re: breaking hearts... [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:
Anyone (Pro) that thinks he isn't the best biker in tri now is delusional.

Hardly. I'm pretty sure that Sebastian Kienle demonstrated quite clearly in Galveston that he's absolutely a better cyclist in a triathlon. He outrode Lance by 90 seconds and then outran him seven minutes. Kienle is unquestionably THE dominant cyclist at the 70.3 distance. When it comes to Ironman though, there are certainly several other contenders. At Roth last year, Kienle got outridden and outrun by Andreas Raelert, and Raelert didn't even make the front group in Kona (though I think he easily could; his Roth race was just better than his Kona race, just as IMGermany was better than Kona in 2010).

The only people who are delusional are the people who think that Lance is the best biker in tri right now.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: breaking hearts... [JustinD] [ In reply to ]
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The old man Lance is doing for his EGO !

JustinD wrote:
The one difference between Lance and everyone else is that Lance doesn't have to race for his dinner. Lance is sitting on a fat bank account and is doing this for "fun". Now I'm not saying that he doesn't want to win, he clearly does otherwise he wouldn't be doing all of this. If his plan is to hold back his run and try to surprise people at Kona he can take that chance and hold back on his run. And in fact that would make a whole lot of sense to do if his one goal is to finish the best that he can at Kona...
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Re: breaking hearts... [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Opinions vary, but just because LA got outsplit doesn't mean he couldn't have beat Kienle, on the bike. LAs run is his weakness and he is going to have go into his runs relatively fresh.

Styrrell
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Re: breaking hearts... [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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So then the idea that he's the best biker, is almost pointless. If he is the best biker, but cant run for shit, what's the point of being the best biker.

ETA: I dont think it really matters if he is the best biker or 3rd best. What matter is exactly what you suggested, what he can do on the run.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: May 7, 12 11:04
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Re: breaking hearts... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
So then the idea that he's the best biker, is almost pointless. If he is the best biker, but cant run for shit, what's the point of being the best biker.

ETA: I dont think it really matters if he is the best biker or 3rd best. What matters is who is holding the tape above their head after the run.

Fixed it :) But I couldn't agree more about your first paragraph.


< Quitting Isn't An Option >

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Re: breaking hearts... [ddalzell] [ In reply to ]
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ddalzell wrote:
I've thought about this a lot from a strategical perspective. Hear me out.

Lance has to qualify for Kona, He doesn't have to win every event.... Honestly, why would he? Would you want to throw down Pocket Aces before the flop? or slow play it and win the grand prize? I'm not saying he will win Kona, but I think a podium finish is a real possibility... So.. here is the tactic

Everyone knows he is going to lead off the bike... so you can't surprise anyone with this. He might as well see how much time he can put into the pro's with short bike efforts to gauge how much time he will be able to earn at kona. Now, once off the bike, if he could run a 1:14 Half... why would he? Does he want everyone to know he can run this fast? So that they don't let him get a big lead in kona? No, if everyone thinks they can run him down... they may let him go off the front by 10-15 minutes.... now... what if he has been sandbagging his runs in these halfs just to qualify... and finally unleashes he true run and they never real him back in? That right there is perfect tactics for building up to his 1 race a year.... Don't lay all the cards out there... Don't let your competition know what you have... I'd bet that there is some truth to this and if lance takes a 10-15 min lead off the bike in kona... well... he runs faster than lieto already... it might be game over.

he has been doing that consistently... I think the only race he actually race full gas was Panama, after that IMHO has been all testing the water with dif strategies!

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: breaking hearts... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Its completely pointless, except as a point of discussion, which is what ST is for. I don't think LA can win Kona, but I think he will be in the mix. I think the worst thing any of the top guys can do is try to race him on the bike, but I think that for any of the competitors in an IM. Know what mix of efforts will get you your fastest time then aim to execute that Trying to stray from that for strategic purposes is almost always a bad choice.

Styrrell
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Re: breaking hearts... [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I dont think many will actually race him that will be in contention. Will some try and go with him, you can absolutely believe that, I mean it's smart as hell if your ranked 34th in the pro field, to go get some free pub from the media train that will be at the front of the bike race. I dont think the veteran guys that know how to execute a winning race plan will "race" him on the bike. The top guys dont need to go with him, and it's still on Lance to either keep bluffing all the way to Kona and show his pocket ace's or get that run better. It's on him to win it, not the other way around.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: breaking hearts... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So say he secures a top 5 finish at Kona or perhaps even a podium spot, do you guys think he comes back in 2013 and tries to make a second run at it?
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Re: breaking hearts... [JFinnigan] [ In reply to ]
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I've said this cool experiment would be 2 years with 3 years max (if there was an injury). After that point, I think the boredom factor sets in along with the fact that he wouldnt get better at it (in terms of Kona results). I've said all along, if he got a top 15 that would be a hell of a accomplishment, top 10 would be major kudos, and would just show you how incredibly efficient he is as an endurance athlete. He's one of the best endurance athletes on this planet, but I dont think he's as close to top 5 as others seem to suggest he is.

ETA: And I'm talking about this Lance and winning/contending in Kona as a pointy end pro. It wouldnt surprise me if he does Kona 15 times in the next 20 years, just to be part of the atmosphere, but I think he only has about a 2-3 year shelf life on actual contending in Kona (obviously age related more than anything).

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: May 7, 12 12:05
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Re: breaking hearts... [JFinnigan] [ In reply to ]
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Not if Chrissie comes back. ;-)
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Re: Armstrong's setting it up. [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Zimzala1 wrote:
Is he holding back and moving into form ?


This line of reasoning/questioning/thinking seems to come up a lot with regards to Lance. So let me try to offer some insight. EVERYONE is moving into form. Nobody starts the year ready to win Kona. Even Crowie, who would have certainly peaked for Melbourne (followed by some recovery and now I'm sure he's back on his steady build to peak for Vegas & Kona), was almost certainly not at his very best for Melbourne. No one is holding back at these races. But they are certainly not racing as fast now as they will in a few months (depending on how they structure their seasons).

As a further aside, strong cyclists ALWAYS take their time in the back half (or 1/3) of the race. Chris Lieto took FOUR minutes out of the field in Vegas - at a championship race - after mile 40. Especially at St. Croix, where you do the mini loop of the course twice - once to start and once to finish - it's the logical place to take time out of people and it's also when, typically, the folks that have been pushing the pace start to slow down. That race really starts at the Beast. And it's not really a good risk:reward to push the pace in the middle section of the course. You can take your 1:50 out at the beginning if you want - like Bjorn used to do - but it usually take a lot more power to do so.

Basically, Lance is doing what every other pro does. He's getting fitter, honing his race tactics, and getting a feel for how he balances his output on the bike and how that affects the run (swim output is generally pretty constant). While I am certain it will not put an end to the speculation, Lance is preparing how any smart pro - which is what he is - prepares for a big race on a known date. Crowie also had cards to play on the bike that you didn't see until Kona, and Jacobs had matches on the run, and Bockel on bike and run, and Raelert and...

It'd be a very risky and, IMO, idiotic strategy to sandbag all of your races in hopes of surprising people at your second ever Ironman during a race that will play out completely different tactically and on a dramatically different course topographically and against a field several orders of magnitude deeper than your first ever Ironman. Lance is a master strategist, but he's also a 40 year old who's been away from the sport for 25 years. If you honestly believe he is that confident in his poker face, be my guest to speculate that there is something more than the obvious.

What does this ass clown know? I am just starting the year and I am definitely ready to win Kona.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: breaking hearts... [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Dont know if you guys saw this quote from Lance post race:

according to Lance, "I figure I may have waited a little long on the bike to make my move," staying with Poulat and Potts for awhile. "Every one of these is gonna be a learning experience," he would add later.
(http://www.xtri.com/...temId.511713988.html)

Kinda proves he's still figuring out his strategy.
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Re: breaking hearts... [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
The only people who are delusional are the people who think that Lance is the best biker in tri right now.


I think sir that you are correct.



----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Armstrong's setting it up. [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Let me just say 1 thing about this plan. With cycling, he never had to "qualify" to make the Tour. Atleast on the surface, Lance/WTC is going through the right channels to get Lance "KPR'd" and not have to back door his way in. So, what that means is, by having to "qualify" (did I read correctly that he added St. Croix as a late addition to his schedule), how many matches is he burning? He rode Paris Nice or Dauphine as tune ups, etc, and I'm sure he's doing the same thing for many of these races, but at the same time, I'm also guessing he's seriously having to figure out the racing part of in terms of what he can do on the bike that will affect his run legs.

Lance is a stud professional in everything he does, nutrition, race prep, racing evaluation, equipment. He certainly wont half ass this attempt to give it a serious go at Kona. If this is what helps everyone think Lance is going to win it or be a serious contender than by all means, believe in this plan.

I'm in no way seeing this as anything but simply the qualifying process so that all the pro's dont make a stink about it if, Lance just showed up on Kona race mourning without "qualifying".

And of course, if somehow Lance doesnt make it on KPR, you can bet he'll be there, what was it $1mil was exchanged between Livestrong/WTC to essentially make that happen. I just think he's professional/respectful enough of the sport that he doesnt want to back door his way into this race.

No. Go back and read the press release again. Ironman and Livestrong have partnered in an "attempt to raise $1 million" for cancer awareness. IIRC, It has not been reported that $1 million has changed hands (in either direction).

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Armstrong's setting it up. [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Through this partnership, Ironman will serve as a gold-level sponsor for the Team LIVESTRONG Challenge Series. As a sponsor, Ironman will donate four Ironman World Championship slots in 2012 and 2013 to be auctioned with proceeds going directly to LIVESTRONG.

Originally from: http://ironman.com/...-affec#ixzz1uDUZRAkX

ETA: The whole thing was that the partnership they just formed, all but guranteed that Lance will be in Kona. It's a bloody brilliant business move for both parties.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: May 7, 12 13:13
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Re: breaking hearts... [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
styrrell wrote:
Anyone (Pro) that thinks he isn't the best biker in tri now is delusional.


Hardly. I'm pretty sure that Sebastian Kienle demonstrated quite clearly in Galveston that he's absolutely a better cyclist in a triathlon. He outrode Lance by 90 seconds and then outran him seven minutes. Kienle is unquestionably THE dominant cyclist at the 70.3 distance. When it comes to Ironman though, there are certainly several other contenders. At Roth last year, Kienle got outridden and outrun by Andreas Raelert, and Raelert didn't even make the front group in Kona (though I think he easily could; his Roth race was just better than his Kona race, just as IMGermany was better than Kona in 2010).

The only people who are delusional are the people who think that Lance is the best biker in tri right now.


Boy o boy Rappster, delusional??? That is an extremely strong word. Do you not even think he is in the running? Is Lance not allowed a bad day? If you put Kienle and Lance head to head in a 40K TT without a run afterwards, I am taking Lance. I don't think that is delusional. I am not trying to be disrespectful, I think it's delusional to call Lance the best triathlete in world. That said, I suspect Lance can ride away from any triathlete he wants to when he wants to if he is not measuring himself to be sure he is able to run afterwards. If there is someone that can stay with him, I suspect they might be in the wrong sport!
Last edited by: saltman: May 7, 12 14:23
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Re: breaking hearts... [saltman] [ In reply to ]
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Freaking what? Please. Lance could certainly NOT ride away from Bjorn, Ruble and many many other tri guys, period. This is beyond the minutia of slicing hairs. Lance is not "that" much better than the rest of the best. Please, step of the bandwagon.

Oh, and Lance did not have a bad day yesterday - even he said that he had been solidly beaten in the midst of his own very solid performance. There just happened to be a better man (or two) on the course yesterday.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: breaking hearts... [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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I was referring to Galveston which is where Kienle beat him. I am not on a bandwagon any more so than the haters are simply kicking the bandwagon. I have a lot of respect for professionals. You don't think its slightly disrespectful to suggest that a man that spent 20 years specifically focusing on one sport cannot outride the current triathletes.

If Michael Phelps jumped into triathlon would it be delusional to think he is the best swimmer in triathlon? If Haile jumped in would it be delusional to think he is the best runner? Again, delusional is a strong word.
Last edited by: saltman: May 7, 12 14:35
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