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Are the new Superbikes that super?
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In another post, a person said they had a $10k budget to buy a tri bike. Most folks suggested buying the latest superbike out there, and to an extent, for good reason. The newest bikes have the latest bits and pieces on them, and are theoretically the fastest bikes ever made. But, are they?

If we live in an "age of aero" in which gains with current frame design are marginal at best, are the newest crop of superbikes worth the price? How much has a Canyon, Cervelo, (insert brand here) improved in the last five years or so? To what extent is the additional cost of a new bike worth it compared to purchasing a used frame and building a more customized machine?
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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alaska848 wrote:
To what extent is the additional cost of a new bike worth it compared to purchasing a used frame and building a more customized machine?

Purchasing a used frame and customizing it head to toe is more fun for me

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...F_P7000950/#p7000950

Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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alaska848 wrote:
In another post, a person said they had a $10k budget to buy a tri bike. Most folks suggested buying the latest superbike out there, and to an extent, for good reason. The newest bikes have the latest bits and pieces on them, and are theoretically the fastest bikes ever made. But, are they?

If we live in an "age of aero" in which gains with current frame design are marginal at best, are the newest crop of superbikes worth the price? How much has a Canyon, Cervelo, (insert brand here) improved in the last five years or so? To what extent is the additional cost of a new bike worth it compared to purchasing a used frame and building a more customized machine?
Depends on how far you want (or are able to) plunge into the endless pit of diminishing returns. There are gains to be had, but there's also no question that the bottom of the barrel has been scraped through and we're chipping away at the concrete floor below.
Even if you build up a bicycle with 36-hole box-section wheels and cylindrical frame tubes and exposed cabling and whatever, a considerable majority of total resistance on the bike+rider will tend to be from the rider's body. That's always put serious limitations on room for improvement, and the more improvement that happens, the less further room there is. More and more fanciness is required for smaller functional gains.

Custom machines are an interesting twist. Building bikes piecemeal is usually cost-inefficient, but it's useful for getting exactly what you want. Sometimes that can be more valuable than quality tier or newness. Sometimes that might even be true if the bike is heavier and more aero-draggy or whatever. If your dream in life is to exhibit the maximum amount of chromium, building a bike up with cheap steel parts from the 1970s could be your best option.

The correct answer is, of course, to buy the superbike and build a custom bike and buy eight more bikes.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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alaska848 wrote:
Are the newest crop of superbikes worth the price? ...

To what extent is the additional cost of a new bike worth it compared to purchasing a used frame and building a more customized machine?
"Superbike" is really an amorphous term. To some, it means fastest. To some it means integrated brakes & cockpit, To some, it means top-of-the-line. To some it means most expensive. There are probably many other definitions.

The Cervelo P5, P3x, and P5X are probably the fastest out there still, and they are certainly expensive and have lots of integration. After those, it is probably a battle for 2nd place. Though, after you throw the latest aero cockpit and aero front brake on a bike, there is not much performance difference just between the bikes.

If I had $10K to spend on a bike, I would buy a P3X. I think it looks super cool and I trust that it is very fast. But I have no fantasy that it would be materially faster than my current bike that is pretty much a custom build based on an IA16.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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prices are super....
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [palmtrees] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly diminishing returns, and definitely marginal gains, however yes they are super. I can tell you the disc brakes are the real deal.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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I think they’re worth it if you can afford it. The biggest thing about the new super bikes are that it can get you disc brakes and/or a monopost cockpit. It certainly feels like bikes have reached peak aero, so the focus falls on other areas where there are gains to be made. With Cervelo, specialized, a tri rig front end and others like it, we’re at the golden age of dialing in fits easily. Go out there and do a Chun method aero test and boom, easy gains. It’s no longer as simple as throwing money at a bike and calling it a day. What you can do is throw money at a bike that makes other parts of the process easier eg. adjusting fit, packing on hydration/nutrition without penalty, easier traveling.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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The term superbike has just come to mean that it has dedicated bars - not a reflection on performance at all. But of course, the implication is that they are overall 'super' which makes it a terrible misnomer.
The number one thing that makes a tri/tt bike fast is allowing the rider to get into their best position - which means a good size range and bars with both fine adjustment and a good range of adjustment.
Number 2 and 3 are overall aero or fuel carrying - order depends on your priorities.

There are a lot of so called superbikes that are crippled by their lack of adjustability
Ventum - open mould bars with very limited range
Giant Trinity - very limited range
Cervelo P5D with EX11 - great Y with monopost but very limited Z and no tilt. Switch to EX10 and it is good.

Cervelo P5-Six, Scott Plasma 5, Shiv Disc.. basically the list includes nearly all top level bikes with proprietary bars until we get to the Speed Concept (which has a great range but it's complicated) and P3X, P5X. BMC TM01 if you switch to an Evo bracket.

On the Aero side - Cervelo data showed the P5D to be 9s faster over an IM than a P5. But the P5 could be optimised with better bars
Tour Mag data showed the P5X to be slower than the P5 when not loaded up.
Tour Mag also showed that the P5 doesn't really have many close competitors from other brands (BMC was next best).

In the end it depends on your priorities - if you want a bike that is clearly top of the line buy a 'superbike'
If you want to be the fastest you can be - figure out how to spend your $ to get the best possible position and a bike that supports that. Then optimise all the small factors. It's relatively rare for a 'superbike' to be the best option with this approach.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
The term superbike has just come to mean that it has dedicated bars - not a reflection on performance at all. But of course, the implication is that they are overall 'super' which makes it a terrible misnomer.
The number one thing that makes a tri/tt bike fast is allowing the rider to get into their best position - which means a good size range and bars with both fine adjustment and a good range of adjustment.
Number 2 and 3 are overall aero or fuel carrying - order depends on your priorities.

There are a lot of so called superbikes that are crippled by their lack of adjustability
Ventum - open mould bars with very limited range
Giant Trinity - very limited range
Cervelo P5D with EX11 - great Y with monopost but very limited Z and no tilt. Switch to EX10 and it is good.

Cervelo P5-Six, Scott Plasma 5, Shiv Disc.. basically the list includes nearly all top level bikes with proprietary bars until we get to the Speed Concept (which has a great range but it's complicated) and P3X, P5X. BMC TM01 if you switch to an Evo bracket.

On the Aero side - Cervelo data showed the P5D to be 9s faster over an IM than a P5. But the P5 could be optimised with better bars
Tour Mag data showed the P5X to be slower than the P5 when not loaded up.
Tour Mag also showed that the P5 doesn't really have many close competitors from other brands (BMC was next best).

In the end it depends on your priorities - if you want a bike that is clearly top of the line buy a 'superbike'
If you want to be the fastest you can be - figure out how to spend your $ to get the best possible position and a bike that supports that. Then optimise all the small factors. It's relatively rare for a 'superbike' to be the best option with this approach.
Great post.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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alaska848 wrote:
How much has a Canyon, Cervelo, (insert brand here) improved in the last five years or so? To what extent is the additional cost of a new bike worth it compared to purchasing a used frame and building a more customized machine?

In some ways the (good) old ones are better. BSA bottom bracket capable (low Q). Non-proprietary front ends. Easier to adjust position. That last one is not trivial IMO. A cheap adjustable stem plus the cheapest PD bars will get you a setup that has a huge range of easy adjustment, which is ideal for aero testing. If you want to go as fast as possible you need to test. After you are bored with testing you can spring for bars with less aero drag (and unfortunately less adjustment range).

The new bikes have better clearance for big tires, and maybe slightly better aero... but not always. The new Shiv TT is only claimed to be close in drag to the old one; rather they optimized weight and stiffness. The drag of the frame alone is pretty trivial on any decent bike, and you can buy aftermarket components that are better than any of the stock setups.

I bought a used bike and customized the crap out of it... including modding the frame/fork crown junction and the stem (epoxy filler). It also has a flat bar shifter modded to work as a 1x push button shifter. I like to mod stuff, though.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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Don't get a superbike unless you are fast. It would be a bummer to get passed by a lot of people on lesser bikes in a race.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [altissimotri] [ In reply to ]
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altissimotri wrote:
Don't get a superbike unless you are fast. It would be a bummer to get passed by a lot of people on lesser bikes in a race.

This is what keeps me from buying a PX, or even P5. I don't want to be that guy, so I just upgrade my bike and fly under the radar

Gone with the wind

Instagram: palmtreestriathlon
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
The Cervelo P5, P3x, and P5X are probably the fastest out there still...

Comparison for Cervelo improvements over time:

  • New 2019 P5 about 17g (1.7W) faster than old (2012) P5
  • 2012 P5 is about 6-11 watts faster than other contemporary "superbikes" [Cervelo marketing material]. Call it maybe 6 watts faster than a P4
  • P4 is about 100g (~10 watts faster) than a P3C at low yaw angles [2009 Cervelo dealer marketing material]
  • P3C about 15 grams/1.67 watts faster than P2C [Cervelo Brain Bike presentation]

Cumulatively, that's about 20 watts faster for a 2019 P5 than an old P2C circa 2007.

If I have these numbers right and If the latest generation of "superbikes" is about the same as a 2019 P5, it's kind of amazing that maybe 20 watts is all the improvement that's been made in the last 12 years from 2007.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [altissimotri] [ In reply to ]
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altissimotri wrote:
Don't get a superbike unless you are fast. It would be a bummer to get passed by a lot of people on lesser bikes in a race.

No way! That would spoil everyone's fun!

-----
http://www.howesgreg.com
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [rik] [ In reply to ]
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Whats even funnier are the people buying the expensive bikes but come out of the swim so far behind that they never make up the lost time but they have the "hey look at me bike".
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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So the Canyon Speedmax SLX didn't come into play as a top bike but BMC did? Just curious as that has seemed to be the buzz the last few years, although a PITA to get parts in the US that is...
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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According to Tour data the Speedmax 70s slower over IM than a P5-Three (both in TT config) in a low yaw (avg 4.6deg) scenario. BMC TM01 30s back. Felt IA FRD 93s.
Athletes on Canyons have won a lot of big races, I think that might have helped a bit with buzz.
And the Tour test is the only public data comparing these bikes.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [palmtrees] [ In reply to ]
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palmtrees wrote:
altissimotri wrote:
Don't get a superbike unless you are fast. It would be a bummer to get passed by a lot of people on lesser bikes in a race.


This is what keeps me from buying a PX, or even P5. I don't want to be that guy, so I just upgrade my bike and fly under the radar

If you can't be fast, be flash!

Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [rik] [ In reply to ]
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rik wrote:
  • New 2019 P5 about 17g (1.7W) faster than old (2012) P5
  • 2012 P5 is about 6-11 watts faster than other contemporary "superbikes" [Cervelo marketing material]. Call it maybe 6 watts faster than a P4
  • P4 is about 100g (~10 watts faster) than a P3C at low yaw angles [2009 Cervelo dealer marketing material]
  • P3C about 15 grams/1.67 watts faster than P2C [Cervelo Brain Bike presentation]

Problem is that we never got clear data on how much of those claimed gains came down to bars.

I've digitised every one of the datasets you mention to use in my models. For a 5hr rider

P5D 0.3w over P5
P5 1.5w over P4
P4 6.5w over P3 MKI

A cumulative gain of 4mins. Much of which could also be achieved by putting a set of good modern bars on the P3 MKI.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve always thought there were seriously diminishing aero returns after the gen 1 speed concept and shiv in 2010/11 or even a well thought out p4 or transition. Really, the differences between bikes of the last decade are minor compared to fit geometry.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
bikes of the last decade are minor compared to fit geometry.

Frames, yes. I'd argue that bars, though, have improved quite a bit since then. Particularly in combining adjust-ability with top-tier aerodynamics.
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [alaska848] [ In reply to ]
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if 80% of the drag is the human, are the marginal gains from superbikes even that marginal?
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [rik] [ In reply to ]
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rik wrote:
Cumulatively, that's about 20 watts faster for a 2019 P5 than an old P2C circa 2007.

If I have these numbers right and If the latest generation of "superbikes" is about the same as a 2019 P5, it's kind of amazing that maybe 20 watts is all the improvement that's been made in the last 12 years from 2007.

At what speed are these "watt" figures?

Really, you don't think 20W is a lot? Even if that's at 50km/hr I think that's huge. I'd wager the difference is more like 2W if you put good bars, brakes, and good cable routing (or electronic shifting) on that P2C. And the P2C might even be faster...
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Re: Are the new Superbikes that super? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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The tests can measure stiffness and flex / deflection over a course of varied terrain or is this all wind tunnel I'm assuming? In real world the Canyon may be faster. We all know there are so many variables in testing and non-standarized protocols that can affect time gain/loss and at different yaw. There is also set up position of the individual, and god knows what else. I'm not a wind tunnel expert, but real world riding can be very different than tunnels. One thing we have to consider is the fastest wind tunnel tested frame like the Cervelo is not always the fastest for an individual.

Not that I don't believe you got your results like that, but other manufacturers may have results that are saying THEIR wind tunnel tests show they are faster than a Cervelo. I haven't seen the data cross section comparison of a multitude of tests (has that ever been done??) so I cannot speak from that perspective.
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