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Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend?
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Saw this article on another site and didn't know if anyone else did this:


Many Ironman athletes, training plans, and coaches schedule the weekly long run on Sunday after a long bike on Saturday. The reason is often given as "you need to practice running on tired legs."
This is NOT a good idea and here's why:
  • A long run on tired legs is just another opportunity to practice running slowly on tired legs vs running more quickly on fresher legs. The best way to become a faster runner is to create opportunities in your training week for you to...run faster, not slog through a run on wooden legs!
  • The recovery cost of a long run done on Sunday, for example, after a long Saturday bike is much greater than that same run done mid-week. The net is that Monday, often Tuesday, and sometimes Wednesday's workouts begin to become compromised, especially as that weekend volume gets up to a 4-6hrs long bike on Saturday and 2.5-3hr long run.
  • Any long run in training will have at least an hour or more where your legs feel Ok. That is, they feel like you're starting a long run after a long bike the day before. Contrast this to Ironman race day, where you're coming right off a 112 mi bike after a 2.4mi swim. After you get your legs back a bit, by about mile 6 or 7, your legs will now feel like, at best, about mile 15 of your best long run...then it just gets harder. My point is that your tired legs on Sunday long run isn't even close to what it's going to feel like on race day...so why bother?

I made the switch with my athletes to a mid week (Thursday or Tuesday) long run in '02 or '03, I believe, and never looked back. By separating the long bike from the long run:
  • The long run can now accommodate some get-faster work.
  • We can separate the long run from the long bike with a no-legs day on Friday.
  • We weight the cycling to the weekend. A 3hr semi-long ride on Sunday has a MUCH lower recovery cost than a hard 2.5hr Sunday run = much lower chance that it, and it's combination with the Saturday ride, will affect your early week workouts the following week.
  • Finally, it may create a social opportunity for you on the bike on Sunday -- a Sunday ride with friends. Riding with other athletes, especially those stronger than you, is a very, very valuable opportunity that we encourage our athletes to seek out.

I've been fightin' this fight for years and, in my opinion, it's a clear line in the sand that separates Old from New Skool. It clearly identifies coaches and self-coached athletes who get it vs those who don't have enough experience, haven't done it themselves, and/or haven't stepped back to think things through more critically.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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Rich Strauss, The Regurgitator.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, that was quick.....

I just don't know that I would have the time during the week for my long runs...guess for some it could make sense
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I do, but then "long" is relative.

Currently, my long run is 12 miles at just under a 9:00/mi pace. This mean I can drive my daughter to one of her two hour Volleyball practices, let her out of the car, and run while she practices. This works out perfectly for me.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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My long run is 12-15 miles right now depending on the week... do it on wednesday probably 2/3 of every 4 weeks. Build period right now I run intervals (repeat 400s, 800s, or miles) on Monday, long run Wednesday and tempo run/race on Saturday. Any other running, brick or otherwise, is easy pace w/o a watch or anything. Seems to work well for me

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely do the weekday long run.

It's not really a recovery issue, it's just one of time and daylight. I can squeeze in a 90 minute run on any weeknight, even if I get home when it's already dark. But I don't ride in the dark, and rarely have the daylight for a 2-3 hour weeknight ride. I use both weekend days to go long or semi-long on the weekends (and usually toss in a short run after each).

Has nothing to do with ideal training or recovery, it's just a matter of practicality with my schedule.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I moved my long runs to mid-week (used to be Thursday and now are on Wednesday) a while ago and really prefer it to the weekend long run. It helps that I can run home from work, which is a good time-saver. I adjust my route to add miles as needed. The mid-week timeslot allows for more recovery from the run and lets me ride more on the weekends.

Michelle

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. Wed or Thursday usually. Fits into my schedule nicely.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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If it is that great than why is everyone still doing it the old way? By the way I am asking a legitimate question not trying to be condesnding. I can understand your points but I would need to see results. It is this way with a lot of things. If a change is that great of a leap forward than the top athletes in the world would be doing it right away. Or are they doing it and keeping it a secret? Take barefoot running for example, a lot of media attention is given to how great it is for you but I have never seen an elite runner endorse it and you don't see the top triathletes running Kona in Vibrams.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I have moved my long runs to Friday after work. Long ride on Sunday.

When I am not doing specific long course race build that leaves Saturday for a shorter/easier day that lets me actually do those life related things the rest of the world does. When I looked at what I actually did after work on Fridays it was a no brainer.

And a much higher quality ride on Sunday.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. My long runs (10-13mi now) are on Fridays. Then rest day Saturday (lazy breakfast with the family and whatever family outing for the day), followed by the long ride (3-4hrs with 30min run after) before church on Sunday. I do notice that I am ready for the run on Friday, push myself hard that day, and then am ready again for more workouts on Monday. FWIW, my other runs are on Tues (with intervals) and Wed (as part of a brick). Now, it may be that I was just slacking before, but this workout cycle is definitely having me improve from where I was before.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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i still do it over the weekends, no time for me during the week and i feel fresher even after a long ride the day before compared to running after work during the middle of the week. Working and sitting down for hours is plainly harder than riding my bike outside :)

"Pain is NOT temporary,you remember every bit of it"
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, my long runs have always been during the week once the "real" season begins......I just like the ability to put 100% effort into both of my long training segments......and as an aging athlete, the extra stress of back to back long days is reduced, which I find useful.....

YMMV!
Paul

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I frequently run long during the week, for all the reasons others have listed. Also, if you're running under, say 15 miles, it's easier to schedule that than some of the bike rides.
I also think the 'running on tired legs' thing is bunk.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [runmdc] [ In reply to ]
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runmdc wrote:
If it is that great than why is everyone still doing it the old way? By the way I am asking a legitimate question not trying to be condesnding. I can understand your points but I would need to see results. It is this way with a lot of things. If a change is that great of a leap forward than the top athletes in the world would be doing it right away. Or are they doing it and keeping it a secret? Take barefoot running for example, a lot of media attention is given to how great it is for you but I have never seen an elite runner endorse it and you don't see the top triathletes running Kona in Vibrams.

Who is this "everyone" you speak of?
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I try to avoid long runs by ST standards - but when I do them, they are usually race day. This year I plan to do a few and figure they will be Tuesday or Wednesday.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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absolutely correct; only thing I would add is that at some point during your training cycle, you should do a hard (and/or long) run right after a hard (and/or long) bike so that you can practice what race day is going to fee like; otherwise, whoever wrote that is right on the mark.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [jkahan] [ In reply to ]
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jkahan wrote:
absolutely correct; only thing I would add is that at some point during your training cycle, you should do a hard (and/or long) run right after a hard (and/or long) bike so that you can practice what race day is going to fee like; otherwise, whoever wrote that is right on the mark.

Why do I need to practice what race day will FEEL like exactly?
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [jkahan] [ In reply to ]
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absolutely correct; only thing I would add is that at some point during your training cycle, you should do a hard (and/or long) run right after a hard (and/or long) bike so that you can practice what race day is going to fee like; otherwise, whoever wrote that is right on the mark.


Good thought. Maybe it's better to just race though. Then you'll know what racing feels like. And you get a t-shirt.
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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I think the word: "need" is subjective.. This is just my opinion -- one of my key racing philosophies is: nothing new on race day.

So with regards to running...I like to know what it's going to feel like to run at "race pace" after getting off my bike at "race pace."

I am sure there are runners much better than me who train differently.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I've been doing Thursday long runs since I started in triathlon in 2005. I take Sunday off to spend with the family. My long ride is on Saturday, yes, but generally, I try to have a hard day, then an easy day, then another hard day, etc., so my workouts follow that ideology.
That said, I don't open my business until 11am, so I have more time in the mornings than the average person.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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interesting that this came up this week. I just started trying the long run on MOnday (time opened up where it wasn't before). I like the idea of a 90-120 min run on the trail while waiting for lacrosse practice. Now I did find that the Tuesday bike was much harder than usual and the actual running is much harder for me after work than first thing in the morning, so I'm still on the fence. I'm going to do it again and this time I'll bring some fancy recovery drink for afterwards. I always eat well after a workout, but aim for "food" over "product."

Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe
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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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I have been using a hybrid approach to Long Run (IM training)

Run Focus Weeks:
Thurs Temp Run/Sat Long Bike/Sun Long Run

Bike Focus Weeks:
Thurs Long Run (<=11miles)/Sat Long Bike/Sun Med Bike

I still feel like long runs of 2+ hours on Thurs bleed into feeling semi-fresh on Sat bike. Sat bike is almost always key bike ride.
If i know i have a key long run on Sun, don't kill myself on Sat ride, take a bit off and stay in Zone 1-3.

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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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yep. definitely.
classes don't start until 3p.m. on Mondays and Fridays.
perfect.


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Re: Anyone Run Long During the Week Instead of the Weekend? [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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If possible for them - I have all my IM clients run longer mid week - usually Wednesday - I have never bought into the philosophy - ya have to know what it is like to run on tired legs --- as I child I burnt my hand on the hot stove - I do not need to keep doing that to know what it is like to feel burning flesh......:-)


And also if time is short - then occasionally it is Ok to split the long run up into two sessions AM and PM - say 90 Mins AM and 60 PM..
Hope this helps.





Graham Wilson
USAT Level III Elite Coach
http://www.thewilsongroup.biz
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