What about sleeveless?

Seems like a good deal though and you don't want to be swimming in something that restricts your shoulders to the point they fatigue.

Because it’s slower...?

Not for me. Less buoyancy, but faster stroke rate. My stroke rate in my sleeved Vengnance is 72, in my sleeveless Vortex it's 76. I'm heaps more comfortable in it, have complete freedom of movement in the shoulders and it's quicker to take off. Plus if you work hard on your drafting it's pretty much a moot point.

Good deal, but Roka seems to be the new Xterra or Rudy Project... they are ALWAYS on sale.

Yeah it's fucking bizarre Xterra have had this 70% sale on for 3 years plus. I used the same IRONHRT code this year as I did back in 2016!

Not for me. Less buoyancy, but faster stroke rate. My stroke rate in my sleeved Vengnance is 72, in my sleeveless Vortex it's 76. I'm heaps more comfortable in it, have complete freedom of movement in the shoulders and it's quicker to take off. Plus if you work hard on your drafting it's pretty much a moot point.


Ok, you know what really feels good, just a pair of jammers, and the stroke rates are even higher! But guess what, you swim slower in spite of faster stroke rates, and that goes for a long John too.. And if you find it quicker to take off, then you have not been taught to strip down "ANY" wetsuit to your hips while running to transition. If you knew and did that, all wetsuits would take the same amount of time, provided you have learnt how to get them off your feet..

And yes, you can draft and go faster, but what if you missed that group just 20 yards ahead because you lost a couple seconds a 100 for the first 600 yards of the swim? Drafting is faster, drafting faster groups even faster...

Its ok you like a long John, just dont rationalize that it is just as fast as a full suit, it is not, never has been...

Brenton Ford did a 400m TT in bathers, sleeved and sleeveless. The sleeved was quicker by 7s. Which equates to 33s for a 70.3 swim. But that's a pro, with perfect technique in a pool, no wind, no swell, no waves, no current, no other competitors, no drafting. So yeah if you want to win an internet argument you just did. A full wetsuit is faster. What I'm saying is the difference is so low it's negligible. And as such other factors come in to play, such as comfort, mobility, stroke rate.

This goes to Monty too so I hope he seed this. We debate this all the time and Jarrod Shoemaker and I are always butting headings at Wednesday Open Water Worlds in Clermont. Sleeved is marginally faster for me until it is not, and then it is much much slower. The reason it is slower is because I overheat and once I overheat I am cooked, both on the swim and then on the bike and really the rest of the day.

Personal anecdote I went with a sleeveless one year at Ironman Wisconsin. It was before the new 72 degree pro rules and I think the stated water temp was 74, but there were pockets that were much warmer. I swam in a sleeved suit in practice and got hot so there was no way I was going sleeved on race day. On race day, there is another local pro, solid dude, and his name was up on the wall at the local high school pool as an "hall of fame" swimmer. He was a much better swimmer than I. On race day, I remember looking at him underwater and I could see his face was bright red (for a color blind person that is saying a lot) and I had no business swimming with him. His race was over in the water. He was cooked.

I have seen other pros get cooked as well in racing and I think TJ talked about this one year at I wanted to say Ironman Texas 70.3. Went on to the bike and had no watts. Regardless when it comes to testing, 400m TT is not really the type of test you need to do to simulate overheating. My guess is if we controlled the water temp and made him do a 3800m TT we might see some different results.

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I think you're (deliberately?) missing the point Monty is making. You swim 7 seconds per slower over the first 400m and you've just missed the back of the gp that now swims 2 minutes faster than you would have done if you had been drafting them. Is that significant to you? Maybe not, and that's cool. If you're racing mid pack, who cares if you were more comfortable, but some people may care that the sleeved suit will be faster, albeit possibly not by much.

Another vote for at least trying a sleeveless. If you swim in really cold water, which you might given your location then I understand that you might want a sleeved suit. Sleeveless temps really very person to person but I will go sleeveless as low as 64. I love it. So much freedom plus they are so much faster to put on and marginally faster taking off.

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I think you're (deliberately?) missing the point Monty is making. You swim 7 seconds per slower over the first 400m and you've just missed the back of the gp that now swims 2 minutes faster than you would have done if you had been drafting them. Is that significant to you? //

Thank you, I was beginning to think no one is really getting it. And as for warm water, that is not really the topic here. Sure if you over heat and you cannot continue, then you cannot wear a full/ long John in your swims. Just be aware that some people can, and you will lose time and races to them/


Tom gave some of his stories, here is one back at him. US championships back in Hilton Head one year was in the 80's(water) and there was no wetsuit rule back then. About half the pros went with his choice and wore speedos, the other half were full/ long John suits. Lots of people overheated, but all the winners and money cashers were in the wetsuit group at the end of the day, think I was around 6th or so. The non wetsuit group lost over 2 minutes to us and never recovered. Sure there was some passing going on of the heat blow up guys, but no one from that group ever got to the leaders who won money. I got so hot that day, but lucky for me it was under a 2 hour race, and I cooled down on the bike enough to have a decent run too..

Sorry wasn't deliberately being obtuse! I get what he's saying. I just don't feel there's a huge gulf in difference between the two.

I'm a FOP swimmer. I find any sprinting action is over past 200m, people settle in. There have been a couple of occasions where I haven't gone out as fast and missed the boat. More to do with me not being switched on, rather than lack of speed. 7s over 400m, we're talking less than 2s/100m. My next IM in December I would possibly/probably wear my sleeved Vengnance. I did an OD recently and was at the front, which I thought I would be (no good swimmers) so wore my sleeved. Cairns 70.3 2 weeks ago, was choppy as shit and I wore my sleeveless. I find it better in shitty conditions. Also you watch some poorer swimmers, especially the overweight ones and they look so heavily restricted in their sleeved wetsuits and they have crazy slow stroke rates. I would have thought sleeveless would benefit them more. A buoyant, sleeveless wetsuit.