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Aging: day after a hard day...
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As I've gotten older (55), I've noticed the the first day after a hard day is surprisingly good? Two days after can be in the crapper, that's expected. But, I've had numerous experiences in the last 6 months where the first day after, I'm not as flat as I expected to be. For example....

Saturday, I ran my longest run in over a month (15 miles) at a solid pace. Yesterday, I expected to feel pretty flat. I woke up, and was indeed a bit sore. And the first couple of minutes into my run were a bit rough. However I quickly loosened up and was feeling quite peppy. I felt good enough to pop off a few unplanned harder efforts at 5km pace.

Does anyone else experience this?

When I was younger I would have been more likely to be very flat. Maybe I ran harder back Then? Dunno it seems odd.... I was pretty hammered when I finished the long run.

If I'm not alone, has anyone come up with a good way to take advantage of this window?
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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50 here, I think as we get older we prioritize recovery (sleep, better nutrition, etc.) more because we know we have too or it wonā€™t be possible to keep it going.

Let food be thy medicine...
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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49 next month. Similar to you, I am a better runner these days. I think a lot of it is understanding what works for me and what doesn't. I've learned how to finish a run (easy), understand how my body responds to efforts, not afraid to stop and stretch during a run, not afraid to sit down during a run to breath deep and relax, have years of consistency, better form, prioritize rest, run strong when I feel strong, run easy or stop when I feel like shit, don't cut sleep to get an extra workout in, etc... Basically did the opposite of all that when I first got into the sport.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Yes.
AT efforts (eg 2x20min) level me later in the day and I can feel it the following day if I've emptied the tank.
Heavy lifting (squats, dead lifts, etc) blows me out the next day and the day after that.
I can still recover OK from relatively short, max-effort intervals (I'm all Type II/fast twitch so this is my jam) even on successive days.

I'll plan workouts to account for fatigue and also quality.

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
Last edited by: philly1x: Feb 12, 24 16:06
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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No. Youā€™re weird. Iā€™m 44 and broken šŸ˜œ

I have type 1 though so will play that card till Iā€™m in a pine box when it comes to racing and training šŸ¤£
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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philly1x wrote:
Yes.
AT efforts (eg 2x20min) level me later in the day and I can feel it the following day if I've emptied the tank.
Heavy lifting (squats, dead lifts, etc) blows me out the next day and the day after that.
I can still recover OK from relatively short, max-effort intervals (I'm all Type II/fast twitch so this is my jam) even on successive days.

I'll plan workouts to account for fatigue and also quality.

Im not sure that aligns with what I was trying to describe. I was trying to describe to odd situation where I hard a hard/big day... And 24 hrs later I perform surprisingly well...INSTEAD of being wiped out as I would have previously expected.

So, I'm trying to decide if I should begin to take some kind of advantage of this window... Maybe by planning two days in a row? Or...??
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Don't worry, you'll get over it and in twenty years you'll feel crappy everyday.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [michael Hatch] [ In reply to ]
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michael Hatch wrote:
Don't worry, you'll get over it and in twenty years you'll feel crappy everyday.

Lol. I hope not.

My dad is 81 and still rides motorcycles (he owns 3), installed an AC on his 2 story roof last summer, does stone masonry...and goes to the gym to lift 3 times a week. He's lost 20 lbs since mom died last summer.

I hope in 26 years I'm doing as well.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I will say I have had brilliant C type races on a Sunday coming off a harder Saturday ride. And had some poor A races when tapered.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
I was trying to describe to odd situation where I hard a hard/big day... And 24 hrs later I perform surprisingly well...INSTEAD of being wiped out as I would have previously expected.

So, I'm trying to decide if I should begin to take some kind of advantage of this window... Maybe by planning two days in a row? Or...??
Yeah, I'd def change training and if possible racing, to suit that strength.

Ride that wave for as long as you can!

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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LOL, you kids are something elseā€¦.when I was your ageā€¦.

Iā€™ve found that nutrition, recovery, and consistency, are the key to feeling good during a workout. To that end my Garmin watch surprisingly provides great information on my recovery and training readiness. Nutrition is a little bit trickier, especially now since Iā€™m trying to get down to an aggressive race weight for next season (plus taking in more protein). Of all the things, for me when I forget extra protein, the next days workout is really flat.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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vonschnapps wrote:
LOL, you kids are something elseā€¦.when I was your ageā€¦.

Iā€™ve found that nutrition, recovery, and consistency, are the key to feeling good during a workout. To that end my Garmin watch surprisingly provides great information on my recovery and training readiness. Nutrition is a little bit trickier, especially now since Iā€™m trying to get down to an aggressive race weight for next season (plus taking in more protein). Of all the things, for me when I forget extra protein, the next days workout is really flat.


thanks? But, I don't know how that helps with the question I'm asking. I'm not complaining about an inability to recover, nor was I asking for nutrition advise. If anything, quite the opposite, but in ways that are different than when I was younger.

What I'm asking about a delay in the onset of fatigue after a long/hard workout (2-3 hour long run, or a 90-120min interval session, etc) of 24-48 hours, such that I "could" complete a second workout of some type in that 24-ish hr window.

for example, my current schedule looks something like this (I'm a pure runner these days):

Mon: 6 mi easy
Tue: 12 mi with 8 miles of 5% grade hill repeats @ 10km pace
Wed: 6 mi easy
Thu: 12-14 mi sometimes with about 6 miles of 1-2 mile repeats (3x2mi or 6x1mi or 2x3mi @ 10km pace)
Fri: 6 mi easy
Sat: 15-20 mile easy
Sun: various (could be off, could be 2-4 mi recovery, could be 10-12 mi easy)

Normally, Sunday would be 100% off...its filler for the 100/100s...right now.

What I'm experiencing is that Wed/Fri/Sun I often feel much better than I expect to based on the workout the previous day. So, I'm wondering if there is some way to "stack" things to make use of that "next day window". Perhaps?

Mon: 6 mi easy
Tue: 12 mi with 8 miles of 5% grade hill repeats @ 10km pace
Wed: 10 mi easy (maybe with 2x3mi @ HM pace?)
Thu: 6 mi easy
Fri: 12 mi sometimes with about 6 miles of 1-2 mile repeats (3x2mi or 6x1mi or 2x3mi @ 10km pace)
Sat: 15-20 mile easy
Sun: various (could be off, could be 2-4 mi recovery)

I'm sure that would need some tweaking, I mostly just rearranged the first week above. Wed might need to just be all easy, or something.

I mean I guess I can just try it, and see. I was just curious if others had experienced similar...and, had already tried to make some use of it?

FWIW: I find Garmin metrics to be absolute SHIT. I mean honestly, it gives me recovery times of 4 days, and never things I should even do a workout (constant suggestion to rest). Just trash for me, worthless.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Feb 13, 24 6:59
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
vonschnapps wrote:
LOL, you kids are something elseā€¦.when I was your ageā€¦.

Iā€™ve found that nutrition, recovery, and consistency, are the key to feeling good during a workout. To that end my Garmin watch surprisingly provides great information on my recovery and training readiness. Nutrition is a little bit trickier, especially now since Iā€™m trying to get down to an aggressive race weight for next season (plus taking in more protein). Of all the things, for me when I forget extra protein, the next days workout is really flat.


thanks? But, I don't know how that helps with the question I'm asking. I'm not complaining about an inability to recover, nor was I asking for nutrition advise. If anything, quite the opposite, but in ways that are different than when I was younger.

What I'm asking about a delay in the onset of fatigue after a long/hard workout (2-3 hour long run, or a 90-120min interval session, etc) of 24-48 hours, such that I "could" complete a second workout of some type in that 24-ish hr window.

for example, my current schedule looks something like this (I'm a pure runner these days):

Mon: 6 mi easy
Tue: 12 mi with 8 miles of 5% grade hill repeats @ 10km pace
Wed: 6 mi easy
Thu: 12-14 mi sometimes with about 6 miles of 1-2 mile repeats (3x2mi or 6x1mi or 2x3mi @ 10km pace)
Fri: 6 mi easy
Sat: 15-20 mile easy
Sun: various (could be off, could be 2-4 mi recovery, could be 10-12 mi easy)

Normally, Sunday would be 100% off...its filler for the 100/100s...right now.

What I'm experiencing is that Wed/Fri/Sun I often feel much better than I expect to based on the workout the previous day. So, I'm wondering if there is some way to "stack" things to make use of that "next day window". Perhaps?

Mon: 6 mi easy
Tue: 12 mi with 8 miles of 5% grade hill repeats @ 10km pace
Wed: 10 mi easy (maybe with 2x3mi @ HM pace?)
Thu: 6 mi easy
Fri: 12 mi sometimes with about 6 miles of 1-2 mile repeats (3x2mi or 6x1mi or 2x3mi @ 10km pace)
Sat: 15-20 mile easy
Sun: various (could be off, could be 2-4 mi recovery)

I'm sure that would need some tweaking, I mostly just rearranged the first week above. Wed might need to just be all easy, or something.

I mean I guess I can just try it, and see. I was just curious if others had experienced similar...and, had already tried to make some use of it?

FWIW: I find Garmin metrics to be absolute SHIT. I mean honestly, it gives me recovery times of 4 days, and never things I should even do a workout (constant suggestion to rest). Just trash for me, worthless.



I think the Garmin suggestions are pure shit too. I always ignore it.
You're putting in a lot of miles and around 20% intensity. While this might work for younger athletes, older dudes just break down. You should back off the intensity miles and possibly add some elliptical or cycling to your aerobic volume cutting out some of the leg pounding mileage. Just my take.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [ISleepum] [ In reply to ]
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ISleepum wrote:

I think the Garmin suggestions are pure shit too. I always ignore it.
You're putting in a lot of miles and around 20% intensity. While this might work for younger athletes, older dudes just break down. You should back off the intensity miles and possibly add some elliptical or cycling to your aerobic volume cutting out some of the leg pounding mileage. Just my take.


I'm a higher mileage guy....so, 70 mpw isn't really a big deal. I've done up to 120 miles for many months year over year. I'm working up to a 50k ultra series starting in May.

A fair point, but that's really a worst case. 1. I build up to the 2 intensity days (with 8+ weeks of 1 intensity day before adding the second). 2. I have no qualms with killing the intensity on either day, if I'm not feeling fresh and ready to get after it. Depending on how I feel and where I am in the week, I will either bag the intensity and just do the distance all easy....or, I will cut it short to a easy 6mi and move the 10mi+intensity to the next day.

I have several permutations to my "standard week" with various bailouts, based on how I feel. I have a lot of experience with what intensity I can handle, and know when its too much.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Feb 13, 24 7:34
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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At 63, I still train and race and eat and recover just like I always have. It still feels all about the same, as far as effort and fatigue. The difference is speed. 7 minute miles in the day, are now 9 minute miles. Racing at a sub 6 minute mile, is now being happy to race at a sub 8 minute pace. As long as I keep the effort level the same as always, and accept the aging slow down, everything is fine. Things go to crap real fast, when I try to stop or slow down the decline, by working harder. Thatā€™s when effort, and especially recovery, gets worse than itā€™s ever been.

Iā€™ve also experienced good performance days, following hard days or races. Itā€™s been happening for over 40 years, and very predicable. Itā€™s like a race high. But I alway know the crash is coming. Usually the Wednesday or Thursday after a big race, after a couple days of good training, becomes overwhelming fatigue day, where just getting up the steps becomes work. I know itā€™s coming, and just chill that day.

Athlinks / Strava
Last edited by: Dean T: Feb 14, 24 14:05
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I'm 53 and I notice the same thing these days. My wife no longer works weekends and so I don't like to go out riding on Saturday for 4-6 hours and started doing it on Friday. The first time I tried my 1:20-1:40 long run on Saturday morning, I was surprised how good I felt. It was not a unique occurence. I don't train on Sunday, so if I ride long on Fri/run long on Sat then Sunday is a physically miserable day, but by Mon I am usually fine to go again.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Iā€™ve never seen any paper saying recovery improve with age ( but I donā€™t read many!)

I think mainly I donā€™t go as hard any more ( or that a ā€˜hardā€™ pace is slower nowā€™). Or to say, running a 7/min pace hurts more than a 9/min pace whether you are 25 or 50.

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Older runners, compared to young runners, generally have much less of a spring in their step. Even if running at a good pace an older runner never looks as good as a younger runner with a nice bounce in their stride. So, I reckon it is possible that you can cause less micro tears in your muscles when older because your legs are not taking as much pounding.

Also, inflammation from micro tears in muscles normally peaks after about 48 hours, so if you have glycogen available then the day after a long run can feel better than the day after that.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tom - I have had those days also, but would still caution about ā€œtaking advantage ā€œ of them. Past your 40s you could be doing damage if you pack to many hard efforts back to back. Regardless of how you feel you need to recover after a hard effort to make sure you donā€™t overload. A friend once told me after a marathon that if you donā€™t take time off to recover, you could be walking in the mall two weeks later and have your leg give out and wonder where that came from.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tobrien55] [ In reply to ]
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Tobrien55 wrote:
Hi Tom - I have had those days also, but would still caution about ā€œtaking advantage ā€œ of them. Past your 40s you could be doing damage if you pack to many hard efforts back to back. Regardless of how you feel you need to recover after a hard effort to make sure you donā€™t overload. A friend once told me after a marathon that if you donā€™t take time off to recover, you could be walking in the mall two weeks later and have your leg give out and wonder where that came from.

Certainly a fair point. Although, that statement about your legs spontaneously giving out two weeks after a marathon is a bit of hyperbole.

If what I've experienced is a "thing", and maybe it is since there are several here now reporting similar experience (within spitting distance of my age), then perhaps the question is what is the right approach to make use of the window?

I certainly wouldn't start with 2 hard workouts back to back. Rather, I'd be more likely to stack a Hard-medium and easy-medium followed by a short-easy. Eg:

Day 1: 12mi run with 14x600m Hill repeats, 6x30s strides
Day 2: 10 mi run easy
Day 3: 6mi easy
Day 4: 12 mi easy with 6x30s strides?
Day 5: 6mi easy
Day 6: 18mi easy
Day 7: off

Strictly speaking, that an extra 4mi easy during the week (64, vs 60).

not sure....but, the point is that I would start with day2 being an EASY, not another HARD. One question might be, how would I feel on day 4? Would I be ready for another 12mi day? Or would I be inclined to swap Day4 / Day5?

And...ultimately: Would there be any "benefit" to a schedule like that?

I did the above mentioned Hill Repeats (5% grade, 10km pace) workout, yesterday. Again, I feel surprisingly good (I can do squats without trouble)...I expect to feel less-good tomorrow regardless of what I do (or don't) today.

Maybe another way to look at it is that I'm wondering if its possible to put the "short-easy" / recovery day where the peak-DOMs will be, and slide the "medium" into the "delay window" of DOMS.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
As I've gotten older (55), I've noticed the the first day after a hard day is surprisingly good? Two days after can be in the crapper, that's expected. But, I've had numerous experiences in the last 6 months where the first day after, I'm not as flat as I expected to be. For example....

Saturday, I ran my longest run in over a month (15 miles) at a solid pace. Yesterday, I expected to feel pretty flat. I woke up, and was indeed a bit sore. And the first couple of minutes into my run were a bit rough. However I quickly loosened up and was feeling quite peppy. I felt good enough to pop off a few unplanned harder efforts at 5km pace.

Does anyone else experience this?

When I was younger I would have been more likely to be very flat. Maybe I ran harder back Then? Dunno it seems odd.... I was pretty hammered when I finished the long run.

If I'm not alone, has anyone come up with a good way to take advantage of this window?

Tom, you are a beast. I hope Iā€™m at your level when Iā€™m your age.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Yesterday I swam 4000 with masters @ 1:25 pace (hard for me) and then rode 50 ā€œhardā€ gravel miles in the afternoon. Woke up today feeling ok and did a 3K swim @1:23 pace feeling ā€œokā€. Iā€™m sure tomorrow Iā€™ll be dragging ass and I agree the second day is worse after big efforts. Of course, running is different which Iā€™m not doing now due to sore hamstring. Iā€™m on the far side of 67.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
philly1x wrote:
Yes.
AT efforts (eg 2x20min) level me later in the day and I can feel it the following day if I've emptied the tank.
Heavy lifting (squats, dead lifts, etc) blows me out the next day and the day after that.
I can still recover OK from relatively short, max-effort intervals (I'm all Type II/fast twitch so this is my jam) even on successive days.

I'll plan workouts to account for fatigue and also quality.


Im not sure that aligns with what I was trying to describe. I was trying to describe to odd situation where I hard a hard/big day... And 24 hrs later I perform surprisingly well...INSTEAD of being wiped out as I would have previously expected.

So, I'm trying to decide if I should begin to take some kind of advantage of this window... Maybe by planning two days in a row? Or...??

67 y.o. and I've experienced what you're describing for decades. I've always been good the day following a hard session. I don't know what to attribute it to. As for taking advantage of it by planning two days in a row, I'd say no. If you deliberately go hard the second day any more frequently than 'once in a while', you'll likely see a big increase in residual fatigue. I fall prey to this every now and again, have to remind myself to think longer term.

That said, IME you can take advantage by knowing that you can do a hard-ish effort the day before a race and still be good on race day.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Hahaā€¦yes the legs fall off was just to say there maybe hidden damage that if you donā€™t take it ez and recover you might end up injured. Your plan looks great and I think that a medium run would work. The main thing is consistency as you build towards your goals and listening to your body. As long as you are ready for key workouts nothing wrong with what you are doing.

I just noticed if I kept training in my 50s as I did in my 30/40s I wasnā€™t able to recover and do the main workouts ā€¦.track on Tuesday, tempo on Thursday and long on Saturday as effectively as I wanted. I wanted to be fresh when running with my buddies who where much faster then me so I could push with them to make me faster.
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Re: Aging: day after a hard day... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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To be a little more serious.

What I find is that although I had some life time PBs after 60 (and even one after 70) there's a very fine line between training at a level that you can recover from and going over the edge. Most people never go over the edge, but looking at your numbers (in another post) it seems to me that you are quite capable of going over the line. The speed may still be there but it has to be applied more judiciously.

I still regularly trash myself doing what I could do in the last AG.
Listening to your body is a requisite as you age up.
Good luck with that.
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