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Advice on carbon race wheels
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Looking for opinions on purchasing my first set of tubular race wheels. I can't decide on whether to go with the 23mm rim (Zipp202, Reynolds KOM), the 38mm rim (Zipp303, Reynolds stratus 48mm) or the 58mm Zipp 404's. Since I only have enough $$ for one set what would you folks recommend?

As a reference point, I live in a mountainous region where I love going up and down all week, which is where the 202's would be great (5-6 hillclimb races per year). I do about 6 tri a year with the longest being a 1/2 ironman (good for the 404's I'm sure. Are the 303's just a compromise (like a nice personality date) or have they improved since the review here last year?

I'll be riding either Ksyriums for everyday training and will only use these wheels for racing. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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What is more important to you...hill climb races? or tris? That should get you started.

Personally, I'd go with the 404s. They are still incredibly light, especially with some superlight tires. Frankly, unless you are already at circa 5% bodyfat, going for the superlight 202s seems a waste to me until you've dropped down to that zone.

Now that Zipp has the 202s, I find very little to recommend the 303s. Its either aero, which favors the 404s, or hyperlight which favors the 202. Incidently, Zipp claims their 202 is as aero as older versions of the 303, which makes it even more interesting.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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You did a nice job listing many of the available wheelsets but I didn't really get an underastanding of what is most important to you.

Really, if you think about it, your choice is more aero or less weight. Either way, the differences are minor. Many here will get all worked up over a 1% more aero wheel in the wind tunnel but in reality once you hit the road those differences are negligible. Pick your head up once or twice, reach down for the water bottle a couple of times and you'll be back to zero real fast.

I'm not saying aero isn't valid, I'm saying that anything like the 303 and deeper, the real world differences are not huge. We all need to remember that wind tunnel data is just that. Data extrapolated to simulate real world conditions.

I've got the Reynolds wheelset and like it very much. It's tough, braking surface is good and a good compromise for aero/weight.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [Russell] [ In reply to ]
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Have you guys heard? The Zipp 303 and 404's are going to be dimpled for 2005. For an extra $200.00
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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Marketing hype.

A $60 wheel cover tests the same or better than a $1000 Zipp dimpled disk wheel in the tunnel.

Really, buy what you like or can afford. No wheelset is going to be the magic bullet. Buy whatever and never ever look back and think you would have gotten a better result with the 'other' wheel.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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How about American Classic 58 mm carbon. It's a Zipp rim with the better AC hub for about the same money.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [woodenshoes] [ In reply to ]
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Since I'm a pound junkie, I'm leaningtoward the Rolf Elan aero for day to day rides and the Reynolds Stratus DV-UL for the races. The Ksyriums are more boxy and weigh 255g more (with tires, tubes and skewers) than the Rolfs (2228g vs. 1973g)

Once I figured all the compromises out between weight and aero advantages I came up with my bike weighing 15.5lbs with the Rolfs and 14.56lbs with the Reynolds. Plus the Reynolds are not quite as deep as the Zipps and therefore weigh 153g less(with tubes and skewers). 1697g for the Zipp 404 vs. 1544g for the Reynolds (Good for the hill climbs).

Thanks for the input and this forum. I'll let you know when I pull the trigger.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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Having ridden a few different combinations I would also say check out Campagnolo Bora's....without doubt the nicest wheels I have ridden. Pricey, but very very fast and light....and very reliable. Campag wheels now have HG hubs meaning they are Shimano compatible as well. I have had a few issues with Zipp's (especially build quality on the 404s)...but the 202s look nice. The Reynolds are also very nice and ride great and would lean to them over the Zipps. You could also go completely over the top and track down a pair of ADA's www.ada.prorider.org .....but then you need a second mortgage...but damn they are amazing
Last edited by: j3: Oct 24, 04 21:00
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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Mike -

With your criteria and wheels listes, get the 404 tubulars. I also train on Ksyrium SLs with no problems in the hills. The 404 tubulars are almost a full pound lighter, despite being a 58 mm rim depth (and thus more aero). Basically, the deeper the rim the more aero (material and weight don't really matter to the wind).

I am also a weight weenie and appreciate the 404s as they rev-up and accelerate much faster than my Ksyriums (and this is not in my mind). I also have a set a HED 3s. The 404s are much nicer (hubset) and would serve you well racing. I would not get a 303.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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"I am also a weight weenie and appreciate the 404s as they rev-up and accelerate much faster than my Ksyriums (and this is not in my mind). "

It's great to hear it's not just in your mind. Would you mind sharing the data?
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [asgelle] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, just hold your breath a sec ...

Oh wait, busy picking up my champions jersey from my state. Maybe ask the thousands of others who utilize Zipp wheels for their precious 2-3 minutes. They matter to me.

Anything constructive to add to this poster's question.

Are you blue yet?

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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So you're not going to share your data?
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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Reynolds DV Stratus or UL (if you've got money to throw away). Very aero wheel, great climber, and strong enough to be your everyday wheel. 1/2 lb lighter than the 404 and more aero than the 303 this is the best wheel for triathletes that do a lot of hills. I've had these wheels for a year and they're amazing. Great hubs (white industries).
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a huge fan of the 303. I would not change that stance after a year of road and tri's. I think you'd be best with the 303 or 404 for aero reasons. If all you do is Tri, the 404 would be better. I would stick with Zipp for one reason, if it fails, Zipp is a 1 -800 call away. They will take care of you, unless Reynolds can as well, I'd consider this important as carbon wheels are too expensive to hope someone will fix them if something happens.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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The now asphyxiated poster was trying to tell you that the differences in power required to rev up and accelerate any two pairs of normal wheels is vanishingly small compared to the power required to move cyclist and bike. He (she?) was interested in your proclaimed real-world data that would disprove this truth.

If you attribute your spiffy state championship (in what?) jersery to the fewer (milli)watts required to spin up your wheels, you have demonstrated true mind over matter capabilities.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I would personally vote for the 303 out of the three you mentioned, mostly based on rim height. A 58/60mm rim is:
1) A little bit heavier. Mostly insignificant but it'll make you feel better mentally. :)
2) A lot harder to handle in gusty crosswinds. I can't tell the difference between an Open Pro, a 30mm Veloctiy Deep V and my Spinergy Tillium. But the huge 60mm Jet60 is a handful on gusty 30mph winds. If you never see those kinds of winds then nevermind, but they are here all spring in Floriduh. After 100 miles on the Jet60 my shoulders and arms are fatigued from just keeping things steady.
3) The aero difference is measurable but not huge. 0.35lb vs 0.40lb or something like that on average at 30mph. This is less than 1% difference compared to a 7lb total force. More or less the difference between averaging 20.0mph and 19.9mph at the same wattage output.


Mad
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [triguy42] [ In reply to ]
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I would suggest either the 404's or the Reynolds Stratus. Aero always trumps weight, even while climbing. Remember that the 404 has a bulged sidewall which helps a lot in crosswinds. I used a borrowed one on the front in place of my Spinergy Tilium on a very windy day and had no problems with control. I use my Reynolds Stratus for road racing, I find them a little stiffer than even the 404's. They are a great hill climbing wheel.
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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Check out the Hed Stingers. Less Costly than the Zipps. I got mine online and was able to get a tubular thrown in with the wheel. All3sports.com I think.

mike

PS...Thanks Dr. Dre. I typoed the URL


TheBikeRacer.com
Last edited by: mwbyrd: Oct 25, 04 10:12
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [mwbyrd] [ In reply to ]
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> All2sports.com

Duathlon's superstore?

Dre'

-----------
...
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [trimike92] [ In reply to ]
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A fellow by the name of Bill Vetter did the Bike leg of the Duke IM with my buddy, Dominic. Since I was doing the race solo I asked what wheels he was using and whether I should take Hed3's or Zipp 303's. His response: "It's all in the legs." He went 5:24, which include time to fix a broken chain, probably 4-7 minutes.

I wouldn't obsess about wheels unless you think you might be able to duke it out with LVL or SL or even DS. I can't even beat ST or W or K, so it makes no difference which wheel I use. :)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Last edited by: Robert: Oct 25, 04 10:11
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [flying wombat] [ In reply to ]
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Hey guys, there is a lot of conjecture here, so I will tell you our position on some of these things, hopefully it will help.

The weight/aero debate will forever rage, but my personal feeling is that for most people aero will almost always triumph. The 202 is an incredible hillclimb TT or road racing in the Alps wheelset, but is designed for road racing, and not Tri. The reason is that a roadies need the weight and inertia advantage to make very high wattage intense efforts at key points in a race. Looking at a most any Tour stage in the Alps, the 202 is disadvantaged to a 404 for more than 80% of the course, but will be advantageous in making or following an attack at a key point of a climb. In actuality, the 404 aero advantage offsets its weight over a 202 up to about 7-8% grade depending on rider output. So even in the hilliest of courses, the 202 at best will only be advantageous in very specific terrains. Having said that, however, in road racing, that attack coming out of a hairpin turn onto a 12% section of the climb can be critical, and just 1-2 watts of efficiency gain suddenly becomes a few seconds in a hundred or so meters. This can be pivotal tactically in this type of event. In triathlon, the power requirements are much more stable throughout an event, and will almost always favor the more aero wheel. A rider may lose a few seconds over a very steep pitch, but likely has gained many seconds up to that point and will continue to gain many more seconds after that point. When we run the computer models of the Alpe stages, the 404 always overcomes the lighter wheelsets, generally by a few minutes or so, and thus we have always recommended the 404 depth wheels, but after working with CSC last year, and looking at the power requirements on various stages, we have begun to understand exactly what these guys need, and realize that our computer models more accurately represent a TT over the stage, but do not account for tactics, attacks, or other factors.

As for rim design, our patents on rim shape help to insure that our rims behave as if they are much deeper than they are, so many comparisons are hard to make to other rims. The 202 is in fact similar aerodynamically to the old 340 rim shape, which was that of a 'V' and the new 303 is comparable to the original 440 rim which was a 'V' shape. Compared to 'V' shaped designs, the 38mm 303 behaves similar to a 'V' shaped 55-58mm rim, and the 404 behaves similarly to a 75-80mm deep 'V' shaped rim. In all, the difference between a 202 and 404 at 30mph on flat land is between 10-14 watts depending on wind angle, and the advantage of a 202 to a 404 at 8% grade at 15mph is roughly 1-2 watts (the two are equal at about 7% according to computer modeling). The real beauty of the Zipp rim shape is that the rims maintain their aero advantage when used with tires wider than the rim (but less than 105% of the width of the bulge), which is the real difficulty with 'V' shaped rims. This allows you to have solid aerodynamics with a 21 or 22 mm tire, whereas you are losing 10-15% efficiency with one of these tires on a 19 or 20mm 'V' shaped rim. This was the real discovery, and in my opinion is the real meat behind the Zipp rim shape patent, especially for roadies who prefer the better grip of a wider tire, and ironman distance triathletes who can use the additional comfort of a slightly wider tire.

Lastly, I wanted to address the comment made about our hubs. I agree with woodenshoes that the AC hub is a great hub, but there is a tendency for people to think that the Zipp hub is not the most advanced hub on the market because they come in prebuilt wheels. We have spent the last 4 years designing and perfecting our hubs, here are a few facts that people tend to overlook:

Zipp makes all hubs completely in house, each designed specifically for the rims they are used with. So a 404 hub has spoke angles precisely for that rim, etc, and on a straight pull hub this is very important. Every Zipp hub is made entirely in the USA in our Speedway, Indiana facility. The Zipp hub uses 4 proprietary grades and heat treatments of 7000 series aluminum, all drawn specifically for our hubsets by Alcoa in Lafayette, Indiana, each type of aluminum and heat treat is specific to a particular part or function of the hub. Zipp hubs are manufactured on dual spindled lathes with live tooling, meaning that most every part can be made in one operation, removing tolerance stackup that occurs when parts have to be removed and fixtured in multiple steps. Because of this the bearings bores are more than twice as concentric and planar as with other manufacturing techniquea. All Zipp hub internals are turned on Swiss watch lathes, these machines were originally designed for manufacturing precision timekeeping components, and are generally only used to make precision aircraft fittings, bone screws and orthopedic inserts joint replacement. The incredibly high accuracy of these manufacruring techniques allows us to use much higher grade ball bearings and races, and results in hubs that spin with lower friction and increased bearing life, while weighing less than other designs. Zipp is the only company in the industry using Swiss made ball bearings, and the only company to use grade 10 balls, which are more than twice as round and 4 times as expensive as grade 25 balls which are the highest precision balls used in the bicycle industry otherwise. There are numerous other very nice hubs on the market, but we feel that we have the finest designed and manufactured hubsets on the planet.

Whichever rim, hub, or manufacturer you go with, my suggestion would be to prioritize aero over weight. If you do go with a 'V' shaped rim, you will need a tire either equal in width or slightly narrower than the rim, in order for the rim to behave to it's potential from an aerodynamic perspective, and if you go with the Zipp products, we recommend 21mm or smaller tires for the 202 and 303 wheelsets, and up to 22.5mm tires on the 404 wheelsets.

Best of luck

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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Josh,

I think your hubs are very, very nice. But my one little complaint (and I offer this as constructive criticism) is the little carbon fiber dustcap. That thing is just kind of sitting there loosely. It can get misaligned and "stuck" so that it is spinning and dragging on the inside of the hub. In general, it seems like an after-thought. As if to say "hey, we can use carbon here." Considering how extremely well everything else is done and the obvious manufacturing precision, it just seems like an area that could be fixed or improved upon. You don't mind if the wipers on your Yugo squeak a little, but on a Ferrari, they shouldn't...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar, thanks for the input. That is actually our number one customer service call/complaint, and a fix is on the way. The dustcap is held in place with a rubber O ring in a groove. This ring and cap cannot be displaced through any normal riding condition, but can be displaced when spinning the wheel in your fingers, or generally during transit/shipping etc. where the hub can be impacted on the dustcap. The original design allowed for the cap to displace after testing showed that the thin cap could crack or develop ugly white stress fractures if highly loaded during shipping (since wheels are shipped on dimensional weight, they travel with other heavy items, and it is not uncommon for your wheels to have a TV or something loaded on top of them during transit...no matter how many 'Fragile' stickers are on the box.

Two 5mm allen keys will loosen the axle, and the rubber ring can be pushed back in place, its a super quick fix, and we instruct shops to check all caps on wheels recently received, but sometimes that step gets lost in the shuffle. The problem was first brought to our attention by CSC who clean the bikes daily with a 1250psi pressure washer, which was dislocating the caps. They now put a drop of superglue on each O-ring and have had no further problems. We have a design change in the works and are now only awaiting the new retaining clips which are made from an carbon reinforced injection molded plastic, and require a new machining path on the part endcaps, but in testing have shown over 250lbs of load resistance without failing or cracking.

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Advice on carbon race wheels [joshatzipp] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks much. Will this be included on all '05 wheels?

Also, I heard the price of Zipp wheels is going up for '05. Is this due to the incorporation of the dimpling on the 404's and the (new) 808's, which are (relatively) more expensive than might otherwise have been expected? Or is it just a general price increase to cover R&D, etc.?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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