A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input

Sep 12, 19 13:58

Post #1 of 31 (6193 views)

I was talking to a friend recently who is thinking about cashing-out / leaving a big SF tech company where he is a product development leader. I think this guy is truly gifted at creating products/software people love, so I'm looking at this as a VC, to potentially seed-fund this. You are welcome to steal our idea for free. As we all know, ideas are a dime a dozen, it's all about execution (access to capital, talent, etc.).....

Anyhow, we got to talking about triathlon coaching and we felt like there is a gap in the market for endurance sports coaching, especially triathlon where three sports massively complicate the logistics of modifying a training plan to life.

Here is the way I see the market:

You have three price points:
1) Free, or whatever is in the Appendix of your $20 book
2) $100-200/season for a canned/static plan that's slightly more tailored to you -- could be delivered by TrainingPeaks/Today'sPlan or something more tech-forward like TrainerRoad
3) $150-400+/month for 1:1 coaching

In my mind, option #2 is a great value and the best choice for most who can't afford a coach, but it's not perfect. The problem with TrainerRoad, etc is you see people who are uncertain about how to modify the plans due to illness, injury, travel/life schedule issues, sandwiching little priority B and C races into their builds etc. Essentially doing what a coach would do. This is especially true for those new to the sport or those steeping in distance to 70.3 or IM and aren't sure how to do it.

I think there is a gap between #2 and #3. What if there was an app/service much like TrainerRoad, but which leveraged AI to adapt these plans to your life, ongoing workout performance, etc.... essentially making a lot of the decisions/refinements a coach would make week to week. Want to squeeze in a little race with a mini-taper, done. Out of town next weekend for a wedding and can't swim or bike, done. Not hitting your intervals or HRV high due to fatigue, schedule modified. Less time to train next week because you're on vacation, modifications made.

I think this product could be delivered for something like $40-50/month (Peloton price) vs $15-20/month (TrainerRoad, Zwift) price. There could potentially be a "premium" option at more like $50-75/month where you get some quarterly season planning, race analysis, etc 1:1 with a coach. I'd envision something where the product would be co-developed with a renowned triathlon coach, or potentially even multiple coaches so that you could choose which "coaching philosophy" you want the AI to use to guide you.

Thoughts?

Last edited by: wintershade: Sep 12, 19 13:59

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:17

Post #2 of 31 (6142 views)

Reminds me of TriDot.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:32

Post #3 of 31 (6092 views)

There is already 1 team w/ a renowned triathlete who also coaches working on almost exactly what you describe

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:38

Post #4 of 31 (6078 views)

Triathlon Taren is already doing similar to this and appears to be succeeding.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:42

Post #5 of 31 (6071 views)

Have you seen Peakers.ai?

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:45

Post #6 of 31 (6062 views)

I would want to know about what the total market cap is. I suspect it is lower than most suspect and highly vulnerable to a recession. I can think of one big place that does mix of your #2 and #3. No idea how successful it is

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:45

Post #7 of 31 (6060 views)

Which team? I've seen something along these lines from Purple Patch "Squad", but it's built on Today's Plan, which I don't think is the right starting place from a product perspective.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:54

Post #8 of 31 (6033 views)

IMO the tri market is small. And possibly getting smaller

This sounds like filling a need which is already being met. With a product which isn’t differentiating itself from what is already out there

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 14:58

Post #9 of 31 (6017 views)

I actually wonder if computer-algorithms and AI can cheaply do automated 'plan modification' in cases where an athlete who has bought a canned plan, finds it too hard in some area. That would be a novel concept and helpful to many, although I think it would really only work efficiently with a coaching plan set up for these sort of modifications on the fly.

Purplepatch's plans already have alternative workouts for fatigue in most of the supporting non-crucial workouts in Dixon's "Fast-Track Triathlete" book.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 15:01

Post #10 of 31 (6010 views)

I agree there’s a gap there. I have relatively little interest in a coach but that type of plan in that gap you describe might actually interest me.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 15:01

Post #11 of 31 (6010 views)

|
\/

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Last edited by: realbdeal: Sep 12, 19 15:02

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [DBF] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 19 15:07

Post #12 of 31 (5996 views)

Agreed, which was my first objection actually. I'm skeptical how big the market is. This would cater to a fairly niche "hardcore" type athlete with decent purchasing power.

According to ObsTri there were 84K IM and 180K 70.3 entries last year. Obviously there is some double counting, but let's say on average 2 races per entrant/year is ~125K entrants which at $50/month is roughly a $75M market for long course tri. I didn't spent the time to look up shorter distance racing and other endurance events (marathons, etc.) which draw far more participants but I think interest in a premium training offering is lower.

Surely this isn't the next Peloton IPO but at first glance could make fore a nice cash-flow business sold to lower-mid market PE or a tuck-in exit to a Garmin, Peloton, etc.

But thanks for all the tips about places doing something similar. Team Trainiac seems to be most similar to the "gap" I had suspected was in the market.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 19 11:02

Post #13 of 31 (5638 views)

Maybe the tri market is shrinking. I don't know if this has to be limited to triathletes, though it could start there.

I think the question really is, is there an unmet need in the market? If so, what are the unmet needs? What products, features, price points do people here wish existed. Perhaps my friend could create that product and make all our lives a little better.

Peakers.AI looks pretty good, but has anyone used it. Is the product/service good? Team Trainiac also looks alright, but it doesn't seem anywhere near as feature-rich as something like TrainerRoad.

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 14:27

Post #14 of 31 (4910 views)

Anyone use Peakers? It looks interesting...but I don't know. Curious about trying it just to see.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 15:00

Post #15 of 31 (4853 views)

Cool. My thinking on this is that you are right in your hypothesis (the gap) but that you can achieve something much more advanced if you cut out the human coaching. If you had a database of tons and tons of good workouts, all properly tagged and IDed, you could code something using Python and/or JS.

There exist plenty of coaches who just throw stuff together anyways, and I know a few. They are not science-based in their approach or training. Good coaches don't do this, but a lot of what they do can be developed with technology. You could easily take user inputs (race date, paces, weight, availability to train, etc etc etc) and calibrate a workout plan. Such a program could just take the athlete through the applicable phases that we know, from science, exist (base, build, peak, taper) and increase volume as any coach would tell you to do. In fact, it's likely this kind of program would be much more precise.

Provide tons of high quality, trusted information on injuries, stretching, strength, recovery, gear, nutrition, and your users can fill in any gaps for free. Computers and coding languages can do MUCH more complex things than this. It's an area ripe for technology to upend.

Nourish - Sports Nutrition Made Easy

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [TizzleDK] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 15:50

Post #16 of 31 (4804 views)

TizzleDK wrote:

Anyone use Peakers? It looks interesting...but I don't know. Curious about trying it just to see.

And expensive. It's also backed by VC money...in VC you got 5 or 10 year cycles. Not exactly sure what kind of market share they're hoping for, but it can't be enough to offset on a 5 year cycle.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Last edited by: TheStroBro: Jan 1, 20 16:00

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [DBF] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 17:21

Post #17 of 31 (4725 views)

DBF wrote:

I would want to know about what the total market cap is.

Market cap? You mean just what the total market size could be?

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 18:09

Post #18 of 31 (4663 views)

wintershade wrote:

I was talking to a friend recently who is thinking about cashing-out / leaving a big SF tech company where he is a product development leader. I think this guy is truly gifted at creating products/software people love, so I'm looking at this as a VC, to potentially seed-fund this. You are welcome to steal our idea for free. As we all know, ideas are a dime a dozen, it's all about execution (access to capital, talent, etc.).....

Anyhow, we got to talking about triathlon coaching and we felt like there is a gap in the market for endurance sports coaching, especially triathlon where three sports massively complicate the logistics of modifying a training plan to life.

Here is the way I see the market:

You have three price points:
1) Free, or whatever is in the Appendix of your $20 book
2) $100-200/season for a canned/static plan that's slightly more tailored to you -- could be delivered by TrainingPeaks/Today'sPlan or something more tech-forward like TrainerRoad
3) $150-400+/month for 1:1 coaching

In my mind, option #2 is a great value and the best choice for most who can't afford a coach, but it's not perfect. The problem with TrainerRoad, etc is you see people who are uncertain about how to modify the plans due to illness, injury, travel/life schedule issues, sandwiching little priority B and C races into their builds etc. Essentially doing what a coach would do. This is especially true for those new to the sport or those steeping in distance to 70.3 or IM and aren't sure how to do it.

I think there is a gap between #2 and #3. What if there was an app/service much like TrainerRoad, but which leveraged AI to adapt these plans to your life, ongoing workout performance, etc.... essentially making a lot of the decisions/refinements a coach would make week to week. Want to squeeze in a little race with a mini-taper, done. Out of town next weekend for a wedding and can't swim or bike, done. Not hitting your intervals or HRV high due to fatigue, schedule modified. Less time to train next week because you're on vacation, modifications made.

I think this product could be delivered for something like $40-50/month (Peloton price) vs $15-20/month (TrainerRoad, Zwift) price. There could potentially be a "premium" option at more like $50-75/month where you get some quarterly season planning, race analysis, etc 1:1 with a coach. I'd envision something where the product would be co-developed with a renowned triathlon coach, or potentially even multiple coaches so that you could choose which "coaching philosophy" you want the AI to use to guide you.

Thoughts?

As desert dude said, this is already being done and their is a world champion working with the company.

With that being said, I have said I am going to do more self promotion in the next decade because I am astounded by the fact that there was 1 pro, in the entire decade, who without a college athletic background, competed at Kona both an amateur and then went back to the drawing board and became a professional and went back to Kona as a pro. One, at least on the men's side. How is this even possible. Where are all the coached athletes? What is more remarkable is said athlete did it without a coach, with less volume than many. What I can say in general is we make mountains out of mole hills, consistency is king, and 1:1 coaching is more about accountability than anything. It will be interesting to see where this field goes. It is truly remarkable what people will pay for as we move more and more to the great service economy. Is there a market, I am sure, but I wouldn't bet the farm on the idea.

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Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 18:23

Post #19 of 31 (4640 views)

How does the new planning tool from TR compare/fit (I just heard about it on their podcast, but an mot a TR athlete, so I have not tried it)? One other thing to think about - this may 'look like' TR/Zwift/Sufferfest/etc. in some dimensions and might be considered by some to be a cost added on top of those. Your approach would likely need to make economic sense to customers considering their entire outlay in training/VR/we-based platfrms as I don't think that your idea would *replace* those - would it?

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 19:18

Post #20 of 31 (4581 views)

giorgitd wrote:

How does the new planning tool from TR compare/fit (I just heard about it on their podcast, but an mot a TR athlete, so I have not tried it)?

I just used that tool to create a customized training plan for an awkward 5 week period i have between the end of a structured training block and some extended travel - and it so happens that i have a race at the end of those 5 weeks.

It's spit out a plan for me which allowed some customization of intensity and hours. How effective that plan actually is remains to be seen.

--
Those who are slower than me suck.
Those who are faster than me dope

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 19:39

Post #21 of 31 (4553 views)

Triathletes in general are type A personality people. As such they make for a difficult client base.

Personally, I would stick with a much more lazy target audience for a subscription based business

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 20:12

Post #22 of 31 (4524 views)

I would like to offer a different view on this topic. Is it marketable? Maybe, but does that matter? There are lots of products that are highly successful while completely failing to deliver any tangible benefit. Is this your objective? Hopefully not. Can this AI coaching be effective? IMHO, probably not. The reason for this opinion is the observation that most scheduled training plans fail. Fail being defined as training the athlete for optimum performance. Why am I making this blanket assessment? Because all forward scheduled training plans fail to recognize the single most important element of optimum training- the physiological, emotional and motivational readiness of the athlete on any given day. The factors involved in this are very diverse, and certainly not something that can be assumed in a schedule. This is where the art of coaching, in conjunction with science is needed. The best coaching comes with the best coaches working with very few athletes, so they can form a relationship, have daily contact to determine what the athlete is ready for on a day by day basis, and with consensus of the athlete decide the appropriate workouts for that day :-)
Short of that, an athlete will do just as well using any one of the dozens of free workout plans available as paying $ 50 - $ 500 a month to a “coach” who is writing his or her version of a canned plan with the same flawed assumption that a certain periodization and progression without daily adjustment (ie coaching) is a good idea. I understand your AI program will attempt to make these refinements, I just think there are far too many variables to effectively do this. It is not just volume x + intensity y * HRV divided by hours of sleep...
When a coach has a relationship with their athlete, these assessments can be done in a relatively short conversation :-)

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 1, 20 20:18

Post #23 of 31 (4522 views)

I have always lived in big cities, so there are many tri clubs with great established coaches to choose from where you can train as a group and have a structured program.
I really don't know many who go online to "buy a plan". I am guess those that do it do not have access to the above i described so i think there will be a market. But TBH. there is so much competition out there now, that differentiation and brand (i.e. well known personality) will be key otherwise this will be one of many out there....

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [wintershade] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 20 4:54

Post #24 of 31 (4344 views)

I would expect that the real value add isn't an AI generated plan at the $40-$50/month range, it's an AI generated plan at the $10-$15/month range.

In order to make this work, you're going to need to disrupt the triathlon coaching market wholesale. In most markets where a disruption occurs, it's that a new product comes in and offers something of more value for the same or less than existing products and services, rather than trying to squeeze into a gap in the market.

The other barrier you'll face is that within the $10-15/month range, you have a few platforms which offer not only the canned training plan itself but also the capability to do the workout itself in a stimulating way (Zwift / Sufferfest).

I'd wager that your best move for this market would be acquisition. Develop the AI to turn canned training plans into dynamic training plans and then sell that tech to one of those platforms. Though the number of firms who would acquire you would be small and some of them appear to be going in that direction anyway. Note how sufferfest can already tailor a training plan to include your own strengths / weaknesses as a rider or for extra $$ will customize a plan that fits your schedule, while Zwift's workout gating system allows you to shift workouts to fit your schedule.

Last edited by: timbasile: Jan 2, 20 4:56

Re: A coaching platform start-up idea, would appreciate input [timbasile] [ In reply to ]

Jan 2, 20 5:41

Post #25 of 31 (4263 views)

What's interesting about Peakers is that it is AI driven but you still get a 'coach' and you get personalized coaches (they seem to be human, I have tried to ask some detailed questions to 'trick' the AI). It 'seems' to be part AI and part real coaching. For the money you get a Nutriionist, a Functional Coach and a Tri Coach and you give Feedback daily about the program. For 90 USD per month I don't think thats expensive. From what I have seen perusing the Internet its much more pricey per month for personalized coaching that does not include nutrition planning but maybe I am wrong.

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

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