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A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is
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Simon Yates started the Giro with a lot of panache and he kept it up til very late. He approached the race like the great Sammy Wanjiru did in the marathon or how you would imagine Steve Prefontaine would have had he ever come to tackle 26 miles. Or maybe one could say he went out - at his first Kona - to show everyone how easy 300 Watts are and how slow a 2:40 marathon is. Like Macca did his first time on the island.
But Yates, like many, hit the wall 35 km into the marathon. He melted down in the energylab in the same way Jim Walmsley did at last years Western States when he was tough enough to go out in course record time in unfortunate conditions.

Yates is only 25 years old and he can gain a lot of experience from this years Giro. And maybe it is unfair to say that he was too cocky too long. A grand tour ain't an ironman. If it weren't for team sky. They approach the three week ordeal as one big race rather than a day-after-day accumulation of stages. Froome is like the Frodeno of the cycling world. He swims with the leaders in front of the other main contenders (Prologue) and then settles into his own rhythm. He knows what he can ride and goes hard enough to make others suffer but slow enough to be sustainable (Sky train). He doesn't jump onto the ĂĽberbiker-train right away when Sander, Kienle and Wurf blaze past (attacks in the mountains). He knows that he will reel them in again sooner or later as the other go too deep into the red. He will be right there with the front on the run or at least in striking distance and then he will put the hammer down at the end of the marathon to make the difference (time trial).

That is how Froome has been tackling the Tour for the past years and people have called it boring. But it didn't work in this years Giro. He suffered from shoulder problems in the lead up to Kona so he missed the lead group for the first time. On the bike, he didn't feel great right away but he did not panick. He rode his watts and hoped that the legs will come around. He tested himself a bit on the climb to the turnaround and made some time but he needed to back off again thereafter and go back to steady state. Only at the end of the bike leg did he start to feel good and he could speed up. Off the bike there was no time to assess the legs. It was all or nothing. So he went out hard and kept pushing. Once he caught the leader in the energy lab, he went right past. He didn't dare to look back and hung on to the finish. It wasn't his best performance but the most gutsy one. He didn't feel good at the start, but he was the one slowing down the least.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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I've always thought all GT's show is just how few GC riders there truly are in each race and the sport for the win.

Which you can say the same for IM as there are only really a handful can truly put it all together. Starky is never going to swim-bike so far ahead that he can "hold on" on the run. He's always going to get beat on the run. Andy Potts isn't going to swim his way to an select group and them ride away.



And I also don't think it's because they race cocky or stupid. I think it's simply because they don't have it to do it day in and day out for 20 stages and not have 1 "bad" day. Or your "bad" day has to be losing 20s on GC not 8 mins, which is guranteed to happen to 80% of the top 10 every year in every GT.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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And Pinot did the ultimate bonk coming out of the energy lab today. Poor guy, I really felt for him.

But man, the guy was attackin/counter attacking like a madman in week one and two. Today he was spent. Yesterday maybe he did a bit too much work going into the stage finish. If he just cruised in with Dumoulin and did not dig so deep for those meaningless 16 seconds maybe he'd have recovered better for today. Pinot already had third place in the GC at that point and there was almost no chance to move up from 3rd in GC so that additional surge at the end of a brutal stage just to bag 16 seconds on Dumoulin was just nailing the coffin.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry, but comparing an IM to a 21 stage race is ridiculous. These analogies are awful, and cycling is a team sport. You might as well compare triathlon to golf, or decathlon. At least those are individual events.

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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
I'm sorry, but comparing an IM to a 21 stage race is ridiculous. These analogies are awful, and cycling is a team sport. You might as well compare triathlon to golf, or decathlon. At least those are individual events.

Actually that was a great analogy for what happened at the Giro.

One of Sky's advantages (perhaps going to be relegated to the past now) is that they have viewed the 3 weeks as 'one race', rather than '21 small races'.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Every GC contender treats the race as a single large unit; it's not unique to Sky at all. The whole reason Yates flamed out so hard was that he was focused for the first two weeks on building a cushion so that he could afford to lose time on the TT without losing the jersey. Quintana followed a similar pattern last year, trying to build up enough of a lead on Dumoulin to keep him safe for the final-day TT. Nibali's win the year before that was a textbook case of treating the race as a single unit: he suffered badly in the early stages, but recovered and kept his powder dry until that absolutely ferocious descent which panicked the race leader badly enough to trigger a catastrophic crash. Nibali could have won stages before that; Dumoulin could have chased Quintana harder in the mountains; and if there was no week-three TT, Yates would have won fewer stages but would probably still be in the mix.

Sky's advantage is that they have a colossal budget that enables them to hire GC contenders (Porte, Landa, Thomas, Poels, Kwiatkowski) as domestiques, and that they have Chris Froome, who (if he is clean) is possibly the most dominant Grand Tour rider since the Cannibal. We don't need to look especially hard to find out why they're winning: they're richer, stronger and faster than everyone else.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [dcircus] [ In reply to ]
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I think you misunderstood (or more likely I didn't explain properly.)

I'm well aware of all the advantages Sky has, and why they are dominant. However, in addition to all the obvious factors, this is the first time I have heard any cyclist,or team, talk about training to physically peak for certain sections of a tour.

I know in the past there has been some mention of how not to 'detrain' if the first week is too easy for the GC guys sitting in the peleton, but no one has ever said (to paraphrase) 'I'm going to be a bit crap at first but should be on top form at the end of the race'
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know man, your Ironman example assumes all the athletes are pretty close in ability. Froome is a different animal than Dumolin or Yates. Those are like the B team guys, all the A teamers are resting up for the TDF. Froome dominates the A teamers year in and year out, he didn't have as much trouble disposing of Yates/etc as you guys would like to think.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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T3_Beer wrote:
I don't know man, your Ironman example assumes all the athletes are pretty close in ability. Froome is a different animal than Dumolin or Yates. Those are like the B team guys, all the A teamers are resting up for the TDF. Froome dominates the A teamers year in and year out, he didn't have as much trouble disposing of Yates/etc as you guys would like to think.[/quote

What are you talking about Dumoulin on B team? You are out of your mind. This guy is also UCI TT world champion, Giro winner, etc etc. He is probably the best grand tour rider right now outside of Froome.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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T3_Beer wrote:
I don't know man, your Ironman example assumes all the athletes are pretty close in ability. Froome is a different animal than Dumolin or Yates. Those are like the B team guys, all the A teamers are resting up for the TDF. Froome dominates the A teamers year in and year out, he didn't have as much trouble disposing of Yates/etc as you guys would like to think.

haha. Dumoulin is B team? You are out of your mind.

Also to the previous poster, this is not a new thing that riders come in to a race looking to peak in the 3rd week. Its been done many, many times. Sky however did do this to perfection.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was curious listening to TD’s comments that he knew coming in to this race *this* year he wasn’t going to win due to lack of TT miles. I believe it was the cycling podcast last week when he said it. It’s funny though. It’s almost as if he can’t attack the mts to gain time but he can ride steady enough not to have super bad days to take him out that ruins every other contender.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Sky's real advantage is that their support riders are stronger than the leaders of more than half of the other teams. They are the modern USPS. Triathlon being a team sport can't be compared for this reason.

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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:
I think you misunderstood (or more likely I didn't explain properly.)

I'm well aware of all the advantages Sky has, and why they are dominant. However, in addition to all the obvious factors, this is the first time I have heard any cyclist,or team, talk about training to physically peak for certain sections of a tour.

I know in the past there has been some mention of how not to 'detrain' if the first week is too easy for the GC guys sitting in the peleton, but no one has ever said (to paraphrase) 'I'm going to be a bit crap at first but should be on top form at the end of the race'
At least Jan Ullrich comes to mind as someone who would target exactly that.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
Sky's real advantage is that their support riders are stronger than the leaders of more than half of the other teams. They are the modern USPS. Triathlon being a team sport can't be compared for this reason.
That is definitely a factor - and they're obviously experts at playing in the grey zone as far as training and supplements are concerned (sadly) - more than other teams.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
M----n wrote:
Sky's real advantage is that their support riders are stronger than the leaders of more than half of the other teams. They are the modern USPS. Triathlon being a team sport can't be compared for this reason.
That is definitely a factor - and they're obviously experts at playing in the grey zone as far as training and supplements are concerned (sadly) - more than other teams.

My take is that Skys big advantage is that they, similary to USPS, have the economic and political power to get away with doping during the race (not just before, like the other teams).
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [fb] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, Sky does have the best team and therefore can apply tactics that noone else can.
But they tend to race clever and do not blow any matches like others do (no crazy kicking etc.)

And there was often talk that Froome does only win because of the sky train. Not true. He showed that he can pull over one hell of an effort by himself. And remember the Vuelta 2011 and Tour 2012 when he was IN that train and had to ride for Wiggins and still finished on the podium.

I am no Sky fan, but I think Froome often gets too much smack.

Also, to be fair with Yates I don't really think he was cocky. He wanted to take as much time as he could for as long as he could. And here comes the Ironman analogy again. When you are an ĂĽberbiker you want to put as big a gap into everyone that is a runner. But sometimes you spend a bit too much energy doing that.

All in all, I think even the punchy guys that go for the GC could learn from more of a steady approach. Yes, attacking is great to watch. But the GC goes to the guy with the fastest overall time. And steady is more sustainable than multiple surging.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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ToBeasy wrote:
Yes, Sky does have the best team and therefore can apply tactics that noone else can.
But they tend to race clever and do not blow any matches like others do (no crazy kicking etc.)

And there was often talk that Froome does only win because of the sky train. Not true. He showed that he can pull over one hell of an effort by himself. And remember the Vuelta 2011 and Tour 2012 when he was IN that train and had to ride for Wiggins and still finished on the podium.

I am no Sky fan, but I think Froome often gets too much smack.

Also, to be fair with Yates I don't really think he was cocky. He wanted to take as much time as he could for as long as he could. And here comes the Ironman analogy again. When you are an ĂĽberbiker you want to put as big a gap into everyone that is a runner. But sometimes you spend a bit too much energy doing that.

All in all, I think even the punchy guys that go for the GC could learn from more of a steady approach. Yes, attacking is great to watch. But the GC goes to the guy with the fastest overall time. And steady is more sustainable than multiple surging.

It would be interesting to see how much time Sky riders spend at 5W per kilo, 6W per kilo, 7W per kilo, 8W per kilo, 10W per kilo. I bet you across the board, Sky riders are riding like diesel. There are attacks are never really crazy ballistic attacks....just long drawn out up tempo efforts. But they never seem to really do these stupid crazy Contador style attacks (Contador could do those when he was fully doped, but on low octane, his "passion" would only take him so far...and even then as much of a Contador fan I am/was in terms of his riding style, I am certain the Vuelta organizers gave him a solid dopinig holiday on his swangsong Vuelta, because they needed his "passion" to sell TV eyeballs).
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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You can't go with a steady approach when day in and day out the pressure put on from someone else is constantly there.


It reminds me of when Bear Bryant was asked by a reported after winning the national championship game in football, where he ran the same play 20 straight times. Why did you do it? "Because they couldn't stop us".

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Every other GC rider is on edge from day 1 to day 20 for these events because they know that when the going gets tough and it's 7 guys left on a mt stage, Sky is going to have 3 of the 7. That's amazing odds to go against, and they know it and Sky knows it.

So it's like an 100m race and Sky is starting at 22m and everyone else at 0m. All you then have to do is not fuck it up, while every other rider has to ride the perfect race day in and day out.

ETA #2- and when your starting as the best rider on a dominant team your "fuck ups" can be way less severe than the other GC guys and you can recover from it.

I'd be curious the "worst" day for every GC guy over the last 5 years in every race. What were the time loses that they lost in each Tour vs what Froome's "bad" day is. Has Froome ever lost over 2 mins as a bad day?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 27, 18 11:38
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Thats what I want to say...

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
Sky's real advantage is that their support riders are stronger than the leaders of more than half of the other teams. They are the modern USPS. Triathlon being a team sport can't be compared for this reason.


This is so true. So apparent on stage 19 when team Sky put rolled to the front to put major hurt on the peloton. If you can find a replay of the stage it starts right about with 91.3k to go. Sky in mass rolls by Michelton-Scott like they are standing still. M-S had been controlling the stage up to that point and the look on the M-S boys faces (ie WTF??) when the Sky train comes rolling through is priceless.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [Trick] [ In reply to ]
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And let's not forget that while Sky had a team in the Giro they also dominated the Tour of California in the mountains too. That also shows the depth of that team.
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think your analogy really holds. Notwithstanding that much of Froome's saving energy and playing the waiting game were due to the presence of his team, which obviously doesn't exist in Ironman, if Froome is Frodeno, then he wouldn't have been virtually out of contention by (stage 18) T2 and still won. When Frodeno has won Kona, he's been at or near the front in T2.

Froome rode himself into shape through the 3 weeks, just as Ullrich and others have done in the past. You can't swim and bike yourself into run shape at Kona.

I have my own opinions as to why Froome seems to have been the only GC contender who got stronger by the end (see also Horner at the Vuelta?).

If you want to make an analogy purely based on likelihood, an 80K solo breakaway that succeeds and wins a Grand Tour is a 2:20 marathon at Kona.

Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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It's an Ironman where you can draft... and on the run, drafting works great too. You keep the leaders in sight, but stay tucked in behind others and save your energy. As everybody fades towards the end, you haven't faded as much and can climb just a tiny bit faster than the other guys.

GC guys talk about how you want to stay behind enough guys so you get the drafting benefit, but not any farther so you don't get caught in any wrecks. Do that for two weeks and the third week starts to show who's least worn out.

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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: A Grand Tour isn't an Ironman - until it is [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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I don't get why people try to compare a 3 week stage race to a single day event. Athletes start both events fresh but cycling racks up a massive ATL and (negative) TSB and the ability to recover day after day after day becomes gradually more important than the 'fitness' itself. Look at how classics riders do in the grand tours - they're rarely contenders except for maybe a stage win. There's a huge difference between going all out on a single day versus racing a grand tours.
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