Look at her using all those crutches and tools to swim. No wonder she only swims a 52-53 minute IM.

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"Be your best cheerleader , not your worst critic.”

Pink font aside.. that is a LOT of pulling work

I swam a 51 IM split 2 years ago and would find this set very difficult, whether it's SCM or LCM, which she didn't specify

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Strava

I'm only a 53 but ditto. I see the swim sets pros are posting and am continuously mortified. I'm either swimming WAY too hard in races or they are swimming WAY to easy.

Am I reading it wrong or is she using the pullbuoy for her entire session?

Makes me woder if a (slower) variation of this could be a good workout for the average swimmer... Any thoughts from the fishes here?

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Sr. Salitre

I swam 6km on Saturday with paddles and pull buoy - at SwimRun Lake James

Is that a typical or an atypical day for her?

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

you are a lot better swimmer than her, but she is in a lot better shape!

This set would be a good example of the survival of the fittest approach of her coach.

One thing I will hand to Sutton, he has figured out(like I have and many others) that to swim lead pack in triathlon OW swimming is not rocket science. Get someone a decent stroke, then pull most all the workout. It builds strength, and it mimics wetsuit swimming. Since most swims are in a wettie, this makes the most sense. No drills, no bullshit, just a lot of hard ass pulling, with and without paddles.

And funny thing happens too, when it is a non wetsuit swim you still hold your place in line with the technical swimmers. You dont need a ton of form when you are sitting one inch off someones feet. That turbulent water moving your direction corrects a ton of imperfections, and just being a strong swimmer is plenty to hold those feet. It is not that complicated, but people like to think so..

Paddles and pull buoy make up a vast amount of Brett Suttons training programmes that you can buy, although I have never seen this set.
(don't quote me but I think his IM programme sets max out at around 4.5km (maybe 5km for the peak day in the whole programme or something like that)

Nothing wrong, in theory, with using the PB 90% of the time, but these are professional triathletes, some who are elite swimmers. A problem occurs when you get AGers doing it, their technique suffers, they no longer work to maintain a good position, they don't kick, their body roll is effected etc And when they do swim without a PB and/or wetsuit things go to shit. They don't kick, their legs sink and they struggle. Use toys, but not to the detriment of your swimming technique.

 A problem occurs when you get AGers doing it, their technique suffers, they no longer work to maintain a good position, they don't kick, their body roll is effected etc And when they do swim without a PB and/or wetsuit things go to shit. They don't kick, their legs sink and they struggle. Use toys, but not to the detriment of your swimming technique.


Yes, but 9 out of 10 races most people do are in a wetsuit, so they will get the benefit of all that strength building. And I disagree that technique suffers, in fact I believe it is held when you have on paddles. Pretty hard to slip your hand on the water with dinner plates on your hands, and it forces a higher elbow. The catch and beginning of the pull is the most important and propulsive part of swimming, and this is the part that pulling isolates.

But you are right, when folks get to Kona and have to do a swim without a wetsuit, they tend to lose more time that the wetsuit advantage gives them. But what do you train for, the 9 out of 10 races, or the one. I know what I go for, but of course I think I did ok in the Kona swim too..(-;

I'm slower then you, 26/27 70.3, but I'm pretty sure I'd make the 100s on the 1.20 with PB and paddles. You'd make those times without PB and paddles wouldn't you??


Edit

Just had a closer look, I think I'd be OK with the 100s, but not the 1000, 800 and 400. I wouldn't be close I don't think.

I now swim almost exclusively with paddles and pull buoy and my master coaches are fine with it knowing that most of my races I race anywhere from 3 to 7km with paddles and pb. But one the fast Cubans in our group told me that every now and then I should drop the buoy and kick a little - to gain fitness.

This thread makes me happy, because I sure love my monster paddles and pull buoy : ))

There is nothing wrong doing kick sets for fitness, and they help in recovery from hard bikes and runs too. That is the beauty of triathlon or multi sport, you get to whole body fitness through lots of avenues. I do about 25% of my swim workouts just kicking, and another 50% pulling. The rest is off stroke which blends everything together nicely...

My coach actually meant just here and there remove the buoy and keep the paddles. :-)

On another note, and I assume she swam SCM, who here could do that set as prescribed, or even without pulling gear? I know we have some fast fishes here where it would be Childs play, and I certainly could have done it 5 years ago, but not now. I would have to work up to doing 6k first, and then I could do it in SCY's.

I'm thinking if she indeed did this set that she may be leaving some time on the table, but not really her fault. In the womens swim in Kona you have the off the front 48/49 womens, but then it is awhile back to the lead pack. She is pretty much dependent on that groups speed, not a reason in the world to ever take a pull in still water for her, unless she is catching up a gap someone made..

I'm thinking that if there were a 51 high group, she just might make it into that one..

Yea, her long repeat intervals are on a 1:15 scm base. I use the size 4 (red) strokemaker paddles, and while I could probably make it, it would be... hard, just due to the fact that it is 6,000m of nonstop pulling . And as previously noted, she is in much better shape than I am. I am doing IMTX in a few weeks and still omly averaging 15k per week, cause i have to put most of my training time into biking and running.

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Strava

She lost 5 minutes to the front group in Kona and I think she is working on at least halving that gap

Are you saying that a ton of pulling benefits adult onset swimmers more than lifelong swimmers?

I am not trying to be snarky... i have been swimming for 30 years and was a Senior Nats level miler, but I know jack about coaching or how to structure swim training. I just get in the water and swim as hard as I can. Back in the day we would do 80-100k per week, but only about 20% or so of that would be pulling. We would mostly swim.. a lot.. and hard.

So my question would be, now that I am only swimming 15k per week due to SBR training, would I benefit from more pulling with paddles? Are there any articles or other literature on this?

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Strava

I think you missed my point Herbert, she will not gain any time on those leaders unless someone else(as in a few) also close that gap. I doubt very highly that she or Sutton has a plan for her to swim all on her own in no mans land between the two packs. She needs someone else to be 2 to 3 minutes faster, then she can ride that time to the finish. Makes no sense for her to work so much harder than the lead group for just a couple minutes, and most likely pulling most of them to faster times..

But it is good that she is getting ready for that possibility, best to be ready when the hammer comes down..

So my question would be, now that I am only swimming 15k per week due to SBR training, would I benefit from more pulling with paddles? Are there any articles or other literature on this?




I seriously doubt that there have been any studies on this, but a lot of top coaches have their swimmers pulling a ton, especially the old ex swimmers. I suppose that is your study for this. I know some pro OW swimmers who pulled a ton, like 10k a day sometimes. When you think about it it makes sense for a guy like you. You have all the technical aspects of swimming honed in, you are time and yardage constrained now because of training for 3 sports and adult life, so you put a little more stress on that time you do have and you are stronger for it. You know your stroke is not going to fall apart when you lose the paddles, and of course being stronger = faster for swimmers that dont have stroke flaws.


I mean in the old days you did 20k a week pulling, so look at it like now you are only doing 15k a week.....

You and I are on the same wave length. What does this set translate too?

It is such a tough thing with paddles and buoys. I was mediocre at best with them, often slower than regular freestyle. But I knew some windup dolls - 18 strokes per lap at :60 seconds/100 pace in short course - who were ball busters when they would put on paddles and buoys.

My guess is you are spot on. If she had the right group she could probably hang a 50-51min at Kona but that groups doesn’t exist in the women’s field. I kind of wonder if the thought that she could go with the 2 other ladies has percolated over there?