70.3 run advice needed

May 10, 23 12:56

Post #1 of 18 (1123 views)

Hello, I'm throwing this out to the more experienced folks on here. Curious to about how much running volume per week and over how long does it take to be able to make the run somewhat comfortable? I'm sure the answer varies on background, abilities, etc. I recently did my 1st race in 2yrs which was my 9th 70.3 with similar results. I posted my best time so far but I can easily shave 25-30min easy if I'm not forced to walk on the back half of the run. Looking over my training since Jan. I averaged about 42miles/month with a weekly avg. of 10miles. All runs in zone 2/3. Most weeks I'm running 3x around 4ish miles with a long run on the weekend 7-11 miles. My schedule only allows10-12hrs/week. Do I simply need to get my avg up to about 20-25miles/week?

Avg. week-
Swimming about 2-3x/week anywhere 6500-8k and ride anywhere from 75-100miles/week. Thinking back to the last 5 races I get to about 5-6miles on the run holding good HR and a pace about :30 slower than just a stand alone run and then the wheels go flying off anywhere around 5-7 and I end up doing the walk-jog-walk-jog which isn't a fun place to be. I'm certainly not the only one that this happens to as there were plenty of folks in the same boat.

What changes do I need to make for the next one? Any thoughts other than my seat post is too high?

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:05

Post #2 of 18 (1106 views)

Sounds like run mileage is off compared to swim/bike.

I'm about a 4:10-4:15 HIM and I'm at about 3 swims(10k), 6-7 hours bike, and 27-30 miles running (3-4 hours). My race is fairly well rounded at something like 30/2:13/1:22, so my breakdown of SBR works for me. I think you need to run more.

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Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:08

Post #3 of 18 (1102 views)

What works for me is one long run, one speed day and two recovery runs for a total of four runs per week. I go by time on all runs except for track workouts.
Long Run: Start at 45 minutes and build up to 1:30.
Speed: Start at 3x1 mile or 3x1K and Build up to 6x1 mile. 1/2 mile to 1K warm up and cool down. I usually do these at 30 sec to 1 min faster than race pace.
Recovery Runs: 30 to 40 minutes VERY easy.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:20

Post #4 of 18 (1075 views)

I'm not a coach, but view myself a decent runner (3:29 for ironman marathon, 1:28 for 70.3).

Your numbers conflict a bit or maybe I'm not reading right but weekly volume of 10 is extremely extremely low. If you got up to 20 to 25 consistently that would be much much better and you'd probably see a ton of improvement but I'd say shoot for 25 to 30, more if you can (I follow 10% rule when building my weekly mileage and it's worked for me). For my best 70.3 runs I peaked around 45 mi per week, probably averaged 30-35 mi per week for 2 months heading into the race. I'm sure others on these forums do much more so that isn't even the extreme end. But yeah just up your volume is my advice. 10 to 12 hrs a week to train is plenty of time to get that volume in. If you have to, cut back on the swims to get an extra run in.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:21

Post #5 of 18 (1075 views)

It would be good to know what your average 70.3 time and specifically how fast you are doing the bike vs the run. Also, how do you feel when you get off the bike? Are you pretty wrecked or are you feeling ready to go? That being said, you are for sure not running enough. I would say that 20-25 miles per week should be appropriate but with a special focus on the weekly long run. Also, if you are struggling at all on the bike that will affect the run. Your bike training is the basis for a good run. You need to be getting off that bike feeling fresh and ready to go.

My guess, with the limited information provided, is that you need more/better course-specific training for the bike and more run volume.

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:35

Post #6 of 18 (1064 views)

Second the 20 miles or more a week. But make sure you work up to it and make it a lot of easy base mileage. Maybe once a week do some speed workouts. But in my experience, unless you're trying to be like the guy in this thread hitting sub 1:30HM you don't need a bunch of speed workouts (and maybe he doesn't either?). In my experience, easy base doesn't get you injured, but when you feel great and strong and think you can just keep crushing it that it takes a toll on your tendons, etc. I think you can get to 1:40 HIM run times injury free if you give it a year of easy base at 20-30 miles a week.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:38

Post #7 of 18 (1059 views)

The wheels go flying off around mile 5-7 and not a single person asks about nutrition and hydration?

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:43

Post #8 of 18 (1047 views)

You need to run 30 miles per week average for the 12 weeks leading into the 70.3

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 13:52

Post #9 of 18 (1033 views)

10 mpw for run training is pretty low for a HIM. Given that you're biking 75-100 (which is adequate), I'd strongly suspect your lack of run volume is the main culprit. I won't even go down to 10mpw even for sprint distance races, as my run performance drops off so much at that low volume.

It does sound weird though that you say you run 3x/wk with a 7-11 mile long run. If you run 4 miles 2x and one long run at 10 miles, that's already 18 miles. So something's not recorded or reported correclty in that run volume.

I like the 80/20 plans a lot; their HIM plan is around 30mpw of running.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

theyellowcarguy

May 10, 23 14:15

Post #10 of 18 (998 views)

I agree the run mileage seems like a problem. I wouldn't want to try a 70.3 without 20 miles a week, I would consider that a minimum.

What are your times like? What is your bike time and power? What is your run pace for a 70.3 vs your training pace? You probably could back off the bike and survive the run til the end even with the lack of training.

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Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 14:23

Post #11 of 18 (980 views)

Th4ddy wrote:

The wheels go flying off around mile 5-7 and not a single person asks about nutrition and hydration?

Agreed. Big miss on our part. If your nutrition is not up to par that could be a huge culprit right there. I know for me lack of nutrition the morning of the race and on the bike used to completely destroy my run performance. Changing my approach to the morning pre-race nutrition probably has made the biggest difference.

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 14:37

Post #12 of 18 (955 views)

I always kept my bike to run milage (per week) at 4-5 to 1 when I was doing well. So 100 miles on the bike is 20-25 miles of running, 75 on the bike is 15 to 19 miles.

If I had a lot of intervals that week I'd be 5 to 1, if it was all easy I'd be closer to 4 to 1.

You also need to honestly consider how hard you're riding compared to what you are capable of doing, but that's another conversation.

Last edited by: jaretj: May 11, 23 2:43

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 14:39

Post #13 of 18 (953 views)

Th4ddy wrote:

The wheels go flying off around mile 5-7 and not a single person asks about nutrition and hydration?

Hah, it could be that my bias is always, "run more, but not too much, just right, but add some more."

I do agree that chugging liquid carbs frequently on the bike and run is key. I carry a gel bottle of a custom blend and take a squeeze every 2km. But if he has enough volume, he could go run a HM fasted. I think the carbs would help the intensity once he wants to get to a certain speed. I'm assuming he's well over 2 hours with the goal to shave off 30 minutes. I think that's still more volume than carbs is needed. But definitely don't forget that.

Last edited by: Lurker4: May 10, 23 14:42

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 15:25

Post #14 of 18 (906 views)

My training time is split 15/50/35 which works out to be about 4k/85mi/27mi for 10ish hours of training (almost all Z2/Z3). I just did St George off of 7-9 hours of weekly training and definitely felt fatigued from miles 7-13, but it didn't feel as if I blew up. My run pace was also :30 faster than my typical Z2 pace.

If I were you, I would up my running mileage and include at least a 13-14 mile run once or twice. I'd also seriously look at my bike power numbers and race day nutrition plan.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 15:58

Post #15 of 18 (886 views)

Lock_N_Load wrote:

Th4ddy wrote:

The wheels go flying off around mile 5-7 and not a single person asks about nutrition and hydration?

Agreed. Big miss on our part. If your nutrition is not up to par that could be a huge culprit right there. I know for me lack of nutrition the morning of the race and on the bike used to completely destroy my run performance. Changing my approach to the morning pre-race nutrition probably has made the biggest difference.

Also, how do we know this guy isn't blasting out of T2 and just running out of gas? So many more things to figure out before blaming his conditioning.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 18:03

Post #16 of 18 (829 views)

I certainly think that more run mileage is better. Your monthly mileage is what I do most weeks of the year. I like to run six days a week. One 'faster' day with tempo work, two very easy runs, two runs with strides, and a long run of 90+ minutes for the 8-10 weeks prior to a 70.3. Frequency is important to running. Even if you can find a couple days where you can squeeze in a 15-20 minute run, it will pay dividends. I strongly feel that consistency is the biggest determinant in regards to success over a long period.

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Re: 70.3 run advice needed [Grahamsc] [ In reply to ]

May 10, 23 18:24

Post #17 of 18 (813 views)

Yeah 10 miles/week is definitely on the lower side OP. You're running less than the race distance each week. I think something closer to 30 miles/week is something to strive for no matter what level you're at. In full training I'm at 40-50 (maybe a touch more for the full).

Time constraints are real. What I would suggest is to make sure you're running after your weekly bike workout & long ride. Maybe every other week run after your long run so it's 1.5 bricks/2 weeks. Even something as little as 20:00-30:00 easy (read: slower than 70.3 pace). Then make sure you're doing a weekly long run. Maybe some weeks that's an hour but it should honestly be around your current weekly volume. Don't rush into any big jumps in mileage. Do things gradually if you're gonna make changes but volume/specificity is key to making improvements.

Other considerations -- pacing & fueling through each disciplines. I tend to think 10 miles/week would lead to walking in the back half of a 70.3 but it's still possible to be over biking or under fueling. Would still focus on trying to add some run miles.

Re: 70.3 run advice needed [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]

May 11, 23 3:28

Post #18 of 18 (702 views)

Thanks to everyone who commented. I’ll start working on bumping to 25-30 a 10% increase. I’m definitely a MOP guy. My times were 34 swim, 1:47 bike, 2:13 run/walk. I did a half Mary in Feb holding a 8:11/mile pace as with many of my long runs. Leading up to the race I only did a few bricks :30min or so and definitely didn’t follow it up with a long run the next day.

In terms of nutrition I felt like I nailed it on the bike. But I only ate a nutrigrain bar and few coffees prior so I was hungry towards the end of the bike but I consumed about 4 bottles 2 w/Gatorade endurance and I made sure I ate 2 salt pills every hr with 3 gu gels. Felt good coming off the bike. Actually had to stop to pee in T2 so I think I was on top of hydration and fuel. I planned on carrying my running bottle as I’m a bigger guy 6’3” 211 but was talked out of it since there were aid stations…. (Not enough) on the run I only took in 1 gu and ate a packet of fast salt tabs. My brain was telling me if I ate another gu I’d be in the bushes yaking but was definitely hungry for something closer to real food. My goal was to simply break the 2 hr half mary. Maybe with more mileage I’ll nail it next time.

Thanks again 👊🏻

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