500+ hours a year? How?

Sep 16, 23 17:33

Post #1 of 82 (4902 views)

I recently discovered the Strava training log which gives yearly hours. I've struggled the last few years handling training volume and haven't come even close to 500 hours. I'm on track for around 400 total this year, and had under 430 last year(and felt like I spent most of the year crushed).

I have the time and organizational structure to get significantly more hours in, and I have a very long history of endurance training in cycling (though still, nothing over 500 hours in the last decade+), but once I get a few 9-11 hour weeks in, the fatigue is absolutely crushing, and I have to take a few days off/a 3-4 hour week.

I've got a sub 4:50 HIM and a 97+ USAT ranking for Olympics and sprints, so I feel like my training is effective-ish, but I'm definitely plateaued fitness-wise, and it's becoming increasingly frustrating having to back off every time I temporarily bump volume due to soul-crushing fatigue.

I don't do too much intensity (very little intensity on the bike, 1-2 hard swims (2500 yards at a time) a week, and one run with 3-6k of 10k- threshold pace a week). But even just dropping the one run workout doesn't make a difference in fatigue.

Is it a matter of filling in the extra time with very, very easy riding and running? Strictly z1 stuff? I've always eschewed that in the past since it seemed to have so little return and rested instead, but I'm not sure how to get in more volume at this point. Just trying to add z2 hasn't worked so far as even that felt too hard (especially in summer with egregious heat/humidity).

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 18:19

Post #2 of 82 (4825 views)

Yes or get an elliptical and do low effort stuff watching YouTube

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 18:21

Post #3 of 82 (4821 views)

Firstly I have to ask, what is so special about doing 500 hours a year?

You said any time you bump the volume you get massive fatigue. So that tells me you don't need to, and shouldn't be doing more volume.

And your comment about not doing much intensity.

I suspect you would be better off keeping the same, or reducing the volume, and increasing the intensity to improve your speed.
Doing more, potentially junk, miles probably won't help.

I would get over the aim to do 500 hours a year and focus your efforts where you will b get the most gains. I suspect doing more intensity work might be it.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [nickag] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 18:31

Post #4 of 82 (4798 views)

500 is more than I've been doing and what I've been doing has not led to additional progression. To be competitive in my age group requires being in the realm of a 4:20-4:30 HIM, but by the 4 hour mark I'm toast.

Sure, I can drop down to 7-8 hours and do more intensity (and have done that in the past), but it doesn't help in longer races.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 18:40

Post #5 of 82 (4777 views)

You didn't mention if you're on a plan or not. It def helps with the volume increases to be on a long-term plan, even if it's a canned one, in that it'll manage the volume increases at a reasonable level to build the volume. If you're already on a plan, then you might have to find a different one with a different approach and/or ramp.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 19:11

Post #6 of 82 (4729 views)

It sounds like you do your easy too hard. It's almost impossible to go too easy, easy to go too hard. I'm pretty close to 500 hours for the year already and IMO it's been kind of a down year for me, hoping to take some time off and come in strong to rebuild into next year. My rule of thumb though is that when I'm too tired relative to how I think I should feel given other factors in the week, it's always because I was doing my easy too hard.

We've created this space where we consider z1/low z2 miles as "junk miles". IMO these are some of the most important miles I do when training for endurance events, as someone who primarily bike races. IMO for most amateur athletes, the high z2/low z3 miles are the real junk miles because the demands of the rest of your life prevent you from recovering well from those, and the additional gain is very small when compared to easier training. Also, if you have the space in your life to support it, occasional 20+ hour training weeks are incredibly effective, even though they're typically going to be primarily easy riding.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 19:37

Post #7 of 82 (4685 views)

Eating within 15 - 30 minutes of finishing a workout is good too. Doing 10 plus hours a week is easy if you do it easy enough.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 19:39

Post #8 of 82 (4684 views)

"I don't do too much intensity (very little intensity on the bike, 1-2 hard swims (2500 yards at a time) a week, and one run with 3-6k of 10k- threshold pace a week)...once I get a few 9-11 hour weeks in, the fatigue is absolutely crushing, and I have to take a few days off/a 3-4 hour week."

Something doesn't add up. Either your "easy" sessions are too hard or there is something off with your recovery (sleep, stress, nutrition). If you are following a reasonable intensity distribution, are ramping up volume gradually, and recovery is decent 9-11 hours shouldn't be crushing you.

While I agree with others that there is nothing special about 500 hours, there is definitely a correlation between training volume and performance. So I understand why you want to solve this issue.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 19:54

Post #9 of 82 (4649 views)

Nothing new to add over some others, but just wanted to throw more weight on the correct answers here - go easier on your easy workouts, make sure you get enough sleep, and eat well. Going from 8 hours/week to 10-11 hours/week should be no problem if you do the above.

What is your 10k run pace and what pace are your easy runs?
How many hours of sleep do you get per night?

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 19:59

Post #10 of 82 (4642 views)

How old are you? 500 hpy is on the order of 1.5 hpd if you workout 6 dpw and take no weeks off. Based on my own schedule - unobtainable. With a couple of weeks off and a couple of weeks off due to injury/overuse, you are getting close to two hpd of workouts. Are you a professional, without other work obligations? Maybe OK. For virtually everyone else - more than feasible.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 20:46

Post #11 of 82 (4582 views)

Had the exact same issue when i trained when not ill or injured and ramped up hitting the 10h/week would maKe me feel like i am about to be sick any minute.
I was young stress free life so no idea why, i can only think of too much intensity/bad genetics 😆

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 16, 23 21:30

Post #12 of 82 (4557 views)

giorgitd wrote:

How old are you? 500 hpy is on the order of 1.5 hpd if you workout 6 dpw and take no weeks off. Based on my own schedule - unobtainable. With a couple of weeks off and a couple of weeks off due to injury/overuse, you are getting close to two hpd of workouts. Are you a professional, without other work obligations? Maybe OK. For virtually everyone else - more than feasible.

Are you saying its doable or not-doable? You said both.

10 hours a week, is not that much. Many Pros train twice that.

As a working engineer for the last 30 years, I've done more than 10 hours per week / 500 hours per year most of my adult life. All the tips have been noted above. Slow down, sleep, eat. Get a trainer, and a treadmill...so you can train when its not good outside (dark, cold, raining).

Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Sep 16, 23 21:31

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 0:31

Post #13 of 82 (4425 views)

I follow someone who has done 1k hours per year the last few years. Elite masters runner and skier in his 50s, no kids and YT for work and online coaching. But does easy work at 100-110 hr on the elliptical and easy walking and lunging on the treadmill. High 15s 5k level runner and won many many us masters championships in different things

Bit of a unique and complex person.

his YouTube is Running Raw

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 2:34

Post #14 of 82 (4374 views)

imswimmer328 wrote:

It sounds like you do your easy too hard. It's almost impossible to go too easy, easy to go too hard. I'm pretty close to 500 hours for the year already and IMO it's been kind of a down year for me, hoping to take some time off and come in strong to rebuild into next year. My rule of thumb though is that when I'm too tired relative to how I think I should feel given other factors in the week, it's always because I was doing my easy too hard.

We've created this space where we consider z1/low z2 miles as "junk miles". IMO these are some of the most important miles I do when training for endurance events, as someone who primarily bike races. IMO for most amateur athletes, the high z2/low z3 miles are the real junk miles because the demands of the rest of your life prevent you from recovering well from those, and the additional gain is very small when compared to easier training. Also, if you have the space in your life to support it, occasional 20+ hour training weeks are incredibly effective, even though they're typically going to be primarily easy riding.

Interesting stuff, and it may be the key new thing to try.

I'm the opposite coming from bike racing. I never did a single z1 ride and raced super successfully (for me, at least) on winters of 2-4 sweetspot to threshold rides a week with a smattering of vo2 work near race season.

I basically dialed in my training to such an extent (and living outside of a city helps) that every single ride had less than 10% of total time below z2 , striving for maximum time efficiency.

Possibly this is the mindset I need to work away from.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [jwmott] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 2:47

Post #15 of 82 (4365 views)

jwmott wrote:

Nothing new to add over some others, but just wanted to throw more weight on the correct answers here - go easier on your easy workouts, make sure you get enough sleep, and eat well. Going from 8 hours/week to 10-11 hours/week should be no problem if you do the above.

What is your 10k run pace and what pace are your easy runs?
How many hours of sleep do you get per night?

I'm around 6:20/mile for 10k pace, 8:05-8:20 for 20-60 minute easy runs, and sometimes a bit faster for a long run, maybe 60-90 minutes at 7:30-8:00 every other week or so.

I'm in bed at 8:00-8:15 and up at 4:00-4:15 without fail. Average about 7:15 to 7:30 hours of restful sleep according to the sleep tracker. I never use an alarm clock and typically wake up wide awake even if still physically tired. I've tried sleeping more but even on rest days I just lay there awake if I don't get up. May be a bit of anxiety involved, but it seems I'm losing 5-10 minutes of restful sleep ability every couple of years, if that makes any sense. I'm a few months from 40 years old.

I have started addressing nutrition to a much closer extent these last few months (trying to control another variable) and use Dr. Harrison's Saturday app on nearly every workout, consuming calories on almost everything above 45 minutes. I was worried at first I'd gain weight but now I don't overeat nearly as much afterwards and feel much better in general throughout the day. I have begun consuming significantly more protein over the last year or so, and I do think that has helped.

The more I read and reflect, the more it sounds like it's coming down to z2/easy rides and runs being a bit too hard.

Last edited by: velorunner: Sep 17, 23 2:58

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 2:54

Post #16 of 82 (4357 views)

lightheir wrote:

You didn't mention if you're on a plan or not. It def helps with the volume increases to be on a long-term plan, even if it's a canned one, in that it'll manage the volume increases at a reasonable level to build the volume. If you're already on a plan, then you might have to find a different one with a different approach and/or ramp.

I've tried a personal coach (a bit more consistent volume weeks in the 8-10 hour range; I was wrecked by the 8th week and had to stop) and an 80/20 70.3 plan in the past, along with the more traditional progressive 3 weeks up, 1 week down plans that I'd use as a base template and modify.

But to your point, I recently set up a Phil Mosely Master's 70.3 plan for next season that rotates a 2 bigger week/1 shorter week setup rather than the typical 3/1 or consistent volume weeks

Maybe that will help, too. .

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 4:12

Post #17 of 82 (4267 views)

How are you determine your zone 2, in a 5 zone model on the bike.

Can you comfortably talk on all but 1 maybe 2 of your bike workouts?

I agree with you. Something is not right. At 40 years old a 10 hour week should not be overly taxing unless the easy days aren’t easy

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 6:02

Post #18 of 82 (4167 views)

Sorry, stupid Fire tablet likes to aggressively autocorrect - I catch most, but not all. I'm saying that, for most folks who are not pros, 500 hpy is very difficult to achieve. Sure, if this is your only hobby, or you have minimal family obligations, or any number of circumstances that free up time relative to most folks, then 500 hpy could be in the cards. I also pointed out that, if you're a pro and training is part of your job, sure, 500 hpy - and more - is achievable. For *me* - job, family with two children, an aging parent and aging parents-in-law nearby, etc. - 500 hpy is unobtanium. And I think that that is true for most - but as you point out and are an example of - not all.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 7:34

Post #19 of 82 (4076 views)

giorgitd wrote:

Sorry, stupid Fire tablet likes to aggressively autocorrect - I catch most, but not all. I'm saying that, for most folks who are not pros, 500 hpy is very difficult to achieve. Sure, if this is your only hobby, or you have minimal family obligations, or any number of circumstances that free up time relative to most folks, then 500 hpy could be in the cards. I also pointed out that, if you're a pro and training is part of your job, sure, 500 hpy - and more - is achievable. For *me* - job, family with two children, an aging parent and aging parents-in-law nearby, etc. - 500 hpy is unobtanium. And I think that that is true for most - but as you point out and are an example of - not all.

500h/y=20h/w (call it a 2 week offseason). It's not *that* much. If you have a demanding job and young kids, impossible. If you have an ordinary office job and no kids it's almost too easy. Wake up early, find a pool near your commute, keep your spouse happy.

M - AM 1.5h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h Run PM 1h bike
W - AM 2h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h run PM 1h bike
F - AM 1h Bike PM 1h swim
S - 5h bike
S - 2h bike + 1.5h run

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [mathematics] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 7:42

Post #20 of 82 (4070 views)

mathematics wrote:

giorgitd wrote:

Sorry, stupid Fire tablet likes to aggressively autocorrect - I catch most, but not all. I'm saying that, for most folks who are not pros, 500 hpy is very difficult to achieve. Sure, if this is your only hobby, or you have minimal family obligations, or any number of circumstances that free up time relative to most folks, then 500 hpy could be in the cards. I also pointed out that, if you're a pro and training is part of your job, sure, 500 hpy - and more - is achievable. For *me* - job, family with two children, an aging parent and aging parents-in-law nearby, etc. - 500 hpy is unobtanium. And I think that that is true for most - but as you point out and are an example of - not all.

500h/y=20h/w (call it a 2 week offseason). It's not *that* much. If you have a demanding job and young kids, impossible. If you have an ordinary office job and no kids it's almost too easy. Wake up early, find a pool near your commute, keep your spouse happy.

M - AM 1.5h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h Run PM 1h bike
W - AM 2h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h run PM 1h bike
F - AM 1h Bike PM 1h swim
S - 5h bike
S - 2h bike + 1.5h run

Math - You are going too fast and making simple math errors, buddy. 500 hr/yr = 10 hr/wk. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 8:22

Post #21 of 82 (4041 views)

Do you have family and kids? Do you have a demanding FT job? How old are you?

What worked for me in my 30s with no family kids, but with demanding job:

weekdays - 2x days (1-2 hrs)
Weekend - 2x days (4+ hrs in the am, 30-45 ez in the pm)
16.5 hrs/wk 800-900 per year
Recover as needed

Family/kids/job/getting older make this impractical and infeasible.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 8:42

Post #22 of 82 (4019 views)

velorunner wrote:

I recently discovered the Strava training log which gives yearly hours. I've struggled the last few years handling training volume and haven't come even close to 500 hours. I'm on track for around 400 total this year, and had under 430 last year(and felt like I spent most of the year crushed).

I have the time and organizational structure to get significantly more hours in, and I have a very long history of endurance training in cycling (though still, nothing over 500 hours in the last decade+), but once I get a few 9-11 hour weeks in, the fatigue is absolutely crushing, and I have to take a few days off/a 3-4 hour week.

I've got a sub 4:50 HIM and a 97+ USAT ranking for Olympics and sprints, so I feel like my training is effective-ish, but I'm definitely plateaued fitness-wise, and it's becoming increasingly frustrating having to back off every time I temporarily bump volume due to soul-crushing fatigue.

I don't do too much intensity (very little intensity on the bike, 1-2 hard swims (2500 yards at a time) a week, and one run with 3-6k of 10k- threshold pace a week). But even just dropping the one run workout doesn't make a difference in fatigue.

Is it a matter of filling in the extra time with very, very easy riding and running? Strictly z1 stuff? I've always eschewed that in the past since it seemed to have so little return and rested instead, but I'm not sure how to get in more volume at this point. Just trying to add z2 hasn't worked so far as even that felt too hard (especially in summer with egregious heat/humidity).

To echo others: sleep, eating (after exercise esp. important!), avoiding other stressors (alcohol?), and critically, keeping easy days easy. With summer heat/humidity, ‘easy’ is not defined by power or pace, but by heart rate. If you haven’t tried easy running by heart rate, then you probably should!

edit: I also had a few other questions/comments:
1) what is your swim/bike/run balance in training?
2) do you have leg (/arm/back/hips/core, whatever muscles are stressed by the activity) soreness and fatigue (e.g., DOMS), or general systemic cardiovascular fatigue?
3) there is an outside chance of a medical issue or a chronic nutritional deficiency. But given what you say above I’d first suspect too much intensity and I’d want to rule that out before looking for medical causes.
4) how has your training been periodized? do you feel mentally burned out? you might need time off not just for your muscles/tendons but also for your central governor…

Last edited by: twcronin: Sep 17, 23 9:59

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 9:45

Post #23 of 82 (3950 views)

To be clear the OP did not ask about scheduling. They said they had the time, but couldnt recover to do the work. That's an intensity and recovery problem, not scheduling.

That said, I did 12-15 hrs per week when I was in college full-time, with a wife and 3 toddlers, and was the sole engineer working full-time, also.

I read my kids stories every night, ate dinner at the table as a sit down meal every night, and pccasipanmly kissed my wife.

It CAN be done.

As math noted (even with his math error), it's not THAT hard.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [velorunner] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 9:51

Post #24 of 82 (3935 views)

500 hours is 9.5 hours per week, which is not that much. You might be doing too much of your training at too high an intensity, or you may not be sleeping enough hours or not well enough.

Re: 500+ hours a year? How? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 17, 23 11:35

Post #25 of 82 (3859 views)

ericmulk wrote:

mathematics wrote:

giorgitd wrote:

Sorry, stupid Fire tablet likes to aggressively autocorrect - I catch most, but not all. I'm saying that, for most folks who are not pros, 500 hpy is very difficult to achieve. Sure, if this is your only hobby, or you have minimal family obligations, or any number of circumstances that free up time relative to most folks, then 500 hpy could be in the cards. I also pointed out that, if you're a pro and training is part of your job, sure, 500 hpy - and more - is achievable. For *me* - job, family with two children, an aging parent and aging parents-in-law nearby, etc. - 500 hpy is unobtanium. And I think that that is true for most - but as you point out and are an example of - not all.

500h/y=20h/w (call it a 2 week offseason). It's not *that* much. If you have a demanding job and young kids, impossible. If you have an ordinary office job and no kids it's almost too easy. Wake up early, find a pool near your commute, keep your spouse happy.

M - AM 1.5h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h Run PM 1h bike
W - AM 2h Bike PM 1h swim
T - AM 1h run PM 1h bike
F - AM 1h Bike PM 1h swim
S - 5h bike
S - 2h bike + 1.5h run

Math - You are going too fast and making simple math errors, buddy. 500 hr/yr = 10 hr/wk. :)

I'm turning in my arithmetic card and leaving the business with egg on my face. In reality though all but the absolute tightest of schedules can find 10h/w for anything. I've coached people with "no free time" and had them keep a log for a week of what they were doing. A lot of time spent watching tv, going out for dinner, etc.

Not to be a jerk, but if 10h/w of training is putting you in "soul-crushing fatigue" then high level endurance sport is probably not in your genetics.

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