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34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score?
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I have a set of Rolf Prima Vigor wheels (34mm profile) which are superb....best wheels i have ever had for sure....now someone was arguing the other day how i need a 50mm rim wheel to get aero benefit.....

Well, I have a HED3 front and I had to take it off the other day at a 40km TT warm-up as it was pulling me sideways with the crosswinds....the HED3 is really sensitive to sidewinds in my experience.....no matter what YAW angles its tested at to prove to be faster.....

So.....stick to the Rolf's and their 34mm rims and forget about the HED3's or get 50mm rims which will be in-between....what's the aero difference between a 34mm rim and a 50mm rim then in time?

I bet it's insignificant and all marketing hype in real-world conditions to real-world middle of the pack age-groupers (no, not a fish!) like me!

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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If you're getting knocked around put the shallow wheel on the front. Otherwise use the H3.
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Zinc] [ In reply to ]
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It has come to me now, after some time riding aero wheels etc. that I think all this aero wheel business is a load of hype.....can anyone really say a 50mm will be better than a 34mm rim in the real world, to riders who can't average 40km/h on a TT???

....yes, all the stats are there and I've bought into it and spent loads to get aero wheels but guess what.....I'm not noticeably faster at all.....not even with a disc wheel!

Proper, professional fitting on the bike is all.....believe me....and the only aero kit that trully makes a difference is aero bars.....

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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Sperera, we seem to like to buy the same stuff. I have that same wheelset. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Vigor's are faster than the Mavic Pro's I've been training on and they are way sexier. However, that's not one aero/lightweight set versus another, they are in different categories. Aero wheels X versus Aero wheels Y would show a difference, but it sounds like you are not pushing through enough wind to really notice or be able to justify the difference. If for some reason you ever want to get rid of your rear Vigor only I'll consider buying it. A friend was using mine, punctured, and proceeded to roll right through a pothole and now the rim needs replacing.
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Androgynotopia] [ In reply to ]
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Androgynotopia, yes....you're absolutely right...I'm just not fast enough to notice the aero benefits at the moment... I know that.....but 99% of people like me don't realise this....and that's the issue....they spend money an aero this and that and baulk at a bike fit expense for example....ludicrous!

Rolf wheels.....beautiful....don't you just love turning the bike over and spinning the wheel to watch it spin smoothly and endlessly....I'm keeping mine!!!! hahahaha....you can't have them!!!!!

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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the *slower* you are the more difference aero equipment makes

http://www.cyclecoach.com
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Ric_Stern] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
the *slower* you are the more difference aero equipment makes
Huh?
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Androgynotopia] [ In reply to ]
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The slower you go the more time it takes to travel 40 km. You save more time using using aero equipment going slower than you do going faster.



Styrrell
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Androgynotopia] [ In reply to ]
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Well, the theory states if you're slower you get the aero benefits for a lengthier amount of time.....

Sounds like a legal small-print disclaimer eh!!! hahahhaha

But only at speeds over 11mph is it.....as HED claims? that's about 18km/h in euro-speak....actually, what is the agreed time cut-off, shall we say to get aero benefit in terms of speed.....?

what I mean to say is if you're going anything above 20km/h for example the aero euipment is supposed to help....

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [smtyrrell99] [ In reply to ]
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The world according to HED, in fact, I will create another post with this to attract more attention to what people say...

Q.1 Is it true that you have to be riding above 20 mph for aero wheels to make a difference?
A.1 The faster you go, the more power you produce. Efficient use of this power depends on how good your aerodynamics are. The time savings provided by aero wheels will always be proportional to the power of the rider. It doesn’t matter whether you produce 300 watts or 150 watts. In fact, slower riders may not be going at the same speed as faster ones, but aero wheels actually save them an even greater amount of time over the same distance. The only exception is on hills, where speeds slower than about 11 mph aren’t sufficient to compensate for the aero wheel weight disadvantage.

Q.2 Can certain wind angles push a rider along?
A.2 Think of a guy in a rowing boat, using ‘x’ amount of power to move along. Then erect a sail the size of a disc wheel. The surface area of this sail isn’t enough to propel him without rowing as well, but it will make the rowing easier. This is how a disc wheel works at beneficial wind angles. You can’t stop pedalling but it does feel easier.


Q.3 I can only afford one wheel, so which one should it be?
A.3 The front wheel breaks the wind first, so this is the more important of the two. In certain conditions, a front wheel will save twice as much as the rear. However, it also depends on the model of the wheel, because a rear disc will provide at least as much performance as any other aero design on the front.

Q.4 Is aerodynamic performance more important than weight saving?
A.4 let’s look at a few figures. Assume a rider uses a conventional bike over a 25 mile flat course time trial. He weighs 150 lbs, his bike is another 20 lbs, and he his producing 185 watts of power. The aero drag with this scenario would be approximately 6.5 lbs using aero bars into a 2 mph headwind of between 0 and 5 degrees. With his standard bike, our rider’s time would be 1 hour 7 minutes and 38 seconds. If we reduced the weight of his bike by three pounds, that time would come down by just 3 seconds. However swap the wheels to an aero design and the drag could be reduced to 6 lbs. Even with the additional quarter pound weight of the new wheels, his time saving over 25 miles jumps dramatically to over 1 minute 30 seconds. No contest.

Q.5 Are deep rim aero wheels different to true?
A.5 Soft structure carbon rims in the HED range all feature full length spokes. Once you remove the tyre, they true up just like an ordinary bike wheel. Hard structure rims, like the Stinger, are different; they have shorter spokes pulling directly against the carbon section. However, these are taken from moulds with incredibly close tolerance accuracy, so the intrinsic wheel structure of a HED is twice the level where a conventional wheel would need to be trued.

Q.6 How much time could I save in a 25 mile time trial by switching to aero rims?
A.6 It depends on the wheels. Using our 150 lb test rider in an aero tuck as a model, switching to aero wheels will typically save between 1 minute 30 seconds and 2 minutes over a flat 25 mile course. Using a deep front and disc rear, two minutes is a realistic figure. At the other end of the scale, using a pair of Jet V40 would be worth a saving of 1 minute.

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure, but it seems like a lot of aero tests are done at 30mph/50kmh.
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I could get someone to make a 20mm deep aero section rim. They used to be available, but not for some time. I may have to take the one I have and try to mould a rim and make a wheel.

It is spoke count. Certainly, a deeper wheel would be beneficial to a great bike handler with loads of watts, but for anyone under 150 lbs. or is not a great bike handler, anything over 35mm really is a no no.
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [HRH bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm 78kg in weight and a sturdy build you might say with big legs.....

.....on this course we do our TT's on, which is mainly going uphil gradually one way with some nice hills thrown in, with side-winds at times and 4 laps of 10km where we have to practically stop to turn 3 times, with or without traffic hindering the turn.....my best time so far is 63:50mins.....so perhaps on a windless flat course on a good day I could average 40km/h.....

....but hey....the HED3 front had me all over the place!!!!!!!! it was catching the wind like a sail....but sideways!!!!!!

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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sperera wrote: the HED3 front had me all over the place!!!!!!!! it was catching the wind like a sail....but sideways!!!!!!


What did you have on the rear? I find the H3 will do this if I have a regular spoked wheel on the rear, but, with a disc rear, the effect is attenuated.



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [Titan] [ In reply to ]
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I had a disc on the back.....so I guess it must have been REALLY windy....

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: 34mm and 50mm rims - what's the score? [sperera] [ In reply to ]
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I think back to the Lemond era where there were discs and skip-spoked front wheels with a tiny, aero sidewall. They wuz fast back then! I dunno, I think that the Hed3 is unsuitable for many riders for the handling traits they can impart on a windy day.
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