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2x workouts and optimal recovery
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I'm currently looking at running 6x weekly and cycling 3x. That means three days I'll double up (hour on the trainer + 30 to 45 minutes on the treadmill).

My options are to do the ride in the morning and the run at lunch, or just get up earlier and knock them both out in the morning. From a recovery perspective it seems like getting them both done in the morning and then having ~22 hours to recover would be optimal over the split approach. My rides tend to be fairly intense (Sufferfest) and runs are more of a low HR focus.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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Idk I just do them whenever I feel like it but it usually is not one right after the other
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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For me it would be better to ride in the morning and run at lunch. I don't think I could put enough consistent focus into each effort if they were always back-to-back in the morning. Even after my intense trainer rides, I generally feel like I recover within a few hours so I'd be good to go by lunch, but I definitely need more recovery time after running. I'm also not a huge fan of working out early in the morning anyway, so trainer rides are the lesser evil because they don't require much thinking or planning - just slap on TrainerRoad and go.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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I find that running at lunch or in the evening is better than doing it right after the bike. The run is of higher quality and you reduce chance of injury. When I was doing doubles this past year, I would be recovered from my afternoon/evening run by the next morning. That said, from a time management perspective, doing bricks is useful because you only have to shower once, get dressed once, etc. I would suggest doing tempo, medium or long runs with some rest under your belt for a higher quality session, and doing the shorter runs after the bike, only if necessary.

Strava
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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Personally I change as the year goes on. early in the season I try to seperate my bike and run workouts by a minimum of 4 hours, usually 8+ hours with work in the middle. This allows me to maximize a workout and get the most out of the individual sports. as the season gets closer to races I start doing more "brick" style ride run morning sessions so that I get that adaptation.
really it all comes down to personal preference and how your body reacts to certain stimuli. its all an experiment, try one way for a month, see how you like it then try the other and see what felt better.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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Always best to run on fresh legs to reduce injury risk and get more out of your running since it's a skill, not just about metabolic output. There's no real skill in cycling. You aren't going to get injured riding fatigued.

However, if cycling is a weakness more than running and you're an elite runner with good injury history and good mechanics, then you'll get more out of biking first.


In the end, once your training more than maybe 14-16 hours a week, workouts from one day to the next blend together so whether they are separated by 6, 8, 12 or 14 hours, doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

What I would NOT do is a run over 3 miles off a hard bike ride more than 1-2x a week. It becomes counterproductive at some point.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Are you doing BarryP? I have a similar workout schedule (though occasionally 4 rides a week). I plan my recovery run days with my bike days (so short easy runs). I tend to separate them but sometimes it's only by 1 hour or so.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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Given that the running is at low HR, I would just do whatever works best with all of the other life stuff.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [holograham] [ In reply to ]
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holograham wrote:
Are you doing BarryP? I have a similar workout schedule (though occasionally 4 rides a week). I plan my recovery run days with my bike days (so short easy runs). I tend to separate them but sometimes it's only by 1 hour or so.

Yeah, trying it out this winter. Combining it with the Sufferfest build plan, but skipping the recovery rides.

I was able to run off of the bike this morning and felt fine. Again these are slow / easy runs, not going out to kill it. I was hoping someone would chime in with detailed knowledge on recovery. If I wait until lunch to run, is there a recovery process underway that is then interrupted? Or will your body simply recover anytime you're not exerting yourself?

Probably overthinking it, but just curious from a physiological standpoint.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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wcb wrote:
holograham wrote:
Are you doing BarryP? I have a similar workout schedule (though occasionally 4 rides a week). I plan my recovery run days with my bike days (so short easy runs). I tend to separate them but sometimes it's only by 1 hour or so.


Yeah, trying it out this winter. Combining it with the Sufferfest build plan, but skipping the recovery rides.

I was able to run off of the bike this morning and felt fine. Again these are slow / easy runs, not going out to kill it. I was hoping someone would chime in with detailed knowledge on recovery. If I wait until lunch to run, is there a recovery process underway that is then interrupted? Or will your body simply recover anytime you're not exerting yourself?

Probably overthinking it, but just curious from a physiological standpoint.

I don't know from a recovery standpoint, but one thing to consider is fuel burn. I believe there is a huge benefit to doing your morning trainer ride then easy run after in a fasted state in terms of fuel oxidation. As long as you get good recovery directly afterwards, those workouts will yield much better results than splitting it up and always exercising more fully loaded. My statement is rather general and maybe more appropriate to long course racing and not short course.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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I do them whenever I feel like it also. Usually AM and lunch break, or lunch break and after work if I don't feel like getting up early.

The intensity of the workout, food, and sleep, seem to affect recovery a whole lot more than the timing of the workouts. The timing doesn't seem to matter much.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a big fan of getting a decent break between sessions; my wife less so when it eats a weekend day up. This Sunday I had 5hrs on the bike, a 10 min run off it, chilled for about 4 hours, then had a 2200m LCM swim to do. Getting out for the swim was hard but afterwards I was ok. I couldn't have done it and felt OK if I'd stacked it right onto the bike/run.

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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [mongooseman] [ In reply to ]
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mongooseman wrote:
I'm a big fan of getting a decent break between sessions; my wife less so when it eats a weekend day up. This Sunday I had 5hrs on the bike, a 10 min run off it, chilled for about 4 hours, then had a 2200m LCM swim to do. Getting out for the swim was hard but afterwards I was ok. I couldn't have done it and felt OK if I'd stacked it right onto the bike/run.

Yeah I'm talking about much shorter workouts. Probably more intense, but mainly one hour rides with the occasional two hour ride. I've been there with the long weekend rides / runs. You have to break those up.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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wcb wrote:
I'm currently looking at running 6x weekly and cycling 3x. That means three days I'll double up (hour on the trainer + 30 to 45 minutes on the treadmill).

My options are to do the ride in the morning and the run at lunch, or just get up earlier and knock them both out in the morning. From a recovery perspective it seems like getting them both done in the morning and then having ~22 hours to recover would be optimal over the split approach. My rides tend to be fairly intense (Sufferfest) and runs are more of a low HR focus.

I stacked mine a lot last year when I was time strapped until 6:30pm. I'd sit down and eat a snack/hydrate for 30 minutes between the two. It was never that bad as long as they weren't back to back hard workouts. I don't think it's optimal but I would guess it's better than training less
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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Last season I did the BarryP plan but 5 runs per week and combined it with the TrainerRoad General Build plan. My basic schedule looked like:

Mon: Lunch - Run 50 min
Tue: Morn - Bike 60 min (intervals)/25 min easy treadmill
Wed: Morn - Bike 30 min (recovery); Lunch - Swim 2000m; Evening - Run 10km track session with tri club
Thu: Morn - Bike 60 min (intervals)/25 min easy treadmill; Lunch - Swim 2000m
Fri: Morn - Bike 30 min (recovery); Lunch - Run 75min; Evening - Swim 2500m
Sat: Morn - 90min Trainer (intervals)
Sun: Morn - Outdoors 3hrs aerobic ride (z2)

I found that my legs were very fatigued but I could complete the scheduled workouts. I'm lucky in that I can schedule in run/swim training during my lunch break at work. I found that progress was ok on bike/run, but this year I'm planning on doing 12 week focus blocks and just maintaining the other. So e.g. ramping up run volume to 80-90km per week and cutting the bike back to 2 sessions a week.
Last edited by: rock: Jan 4, 16 15:22
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [rock] [ In reply to ]
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rock wrote:
Last season I did the BarryP plan but 5 runs per week and combined it with the TrainerRoad General Build plan. My basic schedule looked like:

Mon: Lunch - Run 50 min
Tue: Morn - Bike 60 min (intervals)/25 min easy treadmill
Wed: Morn - Bike 30 min (recovery); Lunch - Swim 2000m; Evening - Run 10km track session with tri club
Thu: Morn - Bike 60 min (intervals)/25 min easy treadmill; Lunch - Swim 2000m
Fri: Morn - Bike 30 min (recovery); Lunch - Run 75min; Evening - Swim 2500m
Sat: Morn - 90min Trainer (intervals)
Sun: Morn - Outdoors 3hrs aerobic ride (z2)

I found that my legs were very fatigued but I could complete the scheduled workouts. I'm lucky in that I can schedule in run/swim training during my lunch break at work. I found that progress was ok on bike/run, but this year I'm planning on doing 12 week focus blocks and just maintaining the other. So e.g. ramping up run volume to 80-90km per week and cutting the bike back to 2 sessions a week.

I'll be curious to see which way you come out ahead. Sounds like we flip-flopped training schedules. Last year I went 12 weeks of pretty much dedicated bike to start the year (Sufferfest builds) and had great success. I'm curious to see if I have the same results (while improving my running) skipping the recovery rides and replacing them with easy running.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [holograham] [ In reply to ]
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holograham wrote:
Are you doing BarryP? I have a similar workout schedule (though occasionally 4 rides a week). I plan my recovery run days with my bike days (so short easy runs). I tend to separate them but sometimes it's only by 1 hour or so.

Basically the same as me using Barry P. My week looks like this
Mon am - med run
Mon pm - priority swim
Tues am - bike trainer session followed by recovery short run. Will run at lunchtime or evening if running late in morning
Weds am - long run
Weds pm - swim
Thurs - same as tues. trainer session in morn and a recovery run when I can fit it in.
Fri am. - med run
Fri lunch - swim
Sat am - long ride
Sat pm - recovery run
Sun - day off so wife is happy

Will usually get in a couple of short easy commute rides to work. My mid runs and long run are either before breakfast or commuting to work with extra kms added as its not a that far.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [dado0583] [ In reply to ]
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dado0583 wrote:

I stacked mine a lot last year when I was time strapped until 6:30pm. I'd sit down and eat a snack/hydrate for 30 minutes between the two. It was never that bad as long as they weren't back to back hard workouts. I don't think it's optimal but I would guess it's better than training less

This. I am very time-strapped and sometimes have done 4 or 5 bricks in a week as it was my only way of getting in both a bike and a run on those days. Figured it was better than doing just 2 bikes and 3 runs. That said, when I can swing it I prefer early AM run first thing upon waking, work, then trainer rides at night.
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Re: 2x workouts and optimal recovery [wcb] [ In reply to ]
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I am on week 10 of the Zwift Power Build. Mon, Wed, Fri & Sun I bike then run EASY 20-35 min after all in the am. Embarrassingly easy. I just don't have the energy to run a few hours after. I also mix in Tues and Thurs interval run and a long steady (easy pace) run on Sat.

The Zwift plan is much easier than any Sufferfest workouts but I like the mix of easier rides, SS and shorter FTP intervals.
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