i volunteered to be a life guard....errrr... swim buddy for a kids race today, which usat certified. Many of the kids were crying from the start. Did not know how to tread water or anything. Lots of the lifeguards were bringing kids in on their boards, I had to swim with 2 kids on my back. I feel people are throwing themselves or worse children into tri's with bare minimum or no training, in open water. As our usatf fee goes up yearly (for what??) , I would like to see usat certified races have a ows mandatory test that you pass in order to participate in that race.
Triathlon Forum
Login required to started new threads
Login required to post replies
2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!??
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
So is this cert applicable only to the specific race or a “one time certification”?
I don’t think the swim issues are due to lack of experience is it? It’s mainly simply having a heart attack in a very piss poor place that can save you.
Not that it’s not a bad idea, I just don’t see what it serves when it’s a 15 year tri veteran dying of a heart attack.
So are these swim deaths a result of ows “newbies” for majority of them?
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
I don’t think the swim issues are due to lack of experience is it? It’s mainly simply having a heart attack in a very piss poor place that can save you.
Not that it’s not a bad idea, I just don’t see what it serves when it’s a 15 year tri veteran dying of a heart attack.
So are these swim deaths a result of ows “newbies” for majority of them?
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B_Doughtie]
[ In reply to ]
I don’t understand why they don’t hire an extra guard for a warm up area at all races. It seems like that would greatly reduce the stress and possibility of an incident. Especially for cold water swims.
https://twitter.com/mungub
https://twitter.com/mungub
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
Triathlon precipitations is stagnant or downward trending. You want local RDs, who are struggling to keep numbers, to accept USAT mandate of allowing only USAT certified swimmers to register and race?
Folks complain about USAT fees and registration fees as is. Who is going to pay for athletes to get certified in ows? B_Doughtie made a great point of pointing out the folks that are dying in triathlons ... the vast majority, if not all, swim fatalities at triathlons aren't from the first timers. And of those, they drown not because they can't swim, but because of underlying medical conditions.
Edit to add: The big draw of local tris is that you can show up race morning, check in, and race. With all of the hectics of race morning, you want the race to pull aside non-certified ows swimmers and certified them race morning? Or, do you want people to show up the day before to get certified for races? If a race is on a Saturday, you want folks to take a day off, come to the race site on a Friday, and get certified?
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Folks complain about USAT fees and registration fees as is. Who is going to pay for athletes to get certified in ows? B_Doughtie made a great point of pointing out the folks that are dying in triathlons ... the vast majority, if not all, swim fatalities at triathlons aren't from the first timers. And of those, they drown not because they can't swim, but because of underlying medical conditions.
Edit to add: The big draw of local tris is that you can show up race morning, check in, and race. With all of the hectics of race morning, you want the race to pull aside non-certified ows swimmers and certified them race morning? Or, do you want people to show up the day before to get certified for races? If a race is on a Saturday, you want folks to take a day off, come to the race site on a Friday, and get certified?
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
Actually what they should require is a yearly medical screening...it may not disclose all medical issues, but it atleast likely checks/covers for basic check points...which can then be assessed more thorough if abnormality shows up on medical screening.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
zoom wrote:
Triathlon precipitations is stagnant or downward trending. You want local RDs, who are struggling to keep numbers, to accept USAT mandate of allowing only USAT certified swimmers to register and race? Folks complain about USAT fees and registration fees as is. Who is going to pay for athletes to get certified in ows? B_Doughtie made a great point of pointing out the folks that are dying in triathlons ... the vast majority, if not all, swim fatalities at triathlons aren't from the first timers. And of those, they drown not because they can't swim, but because of underlying medical conditions.
Edit to add: The big draw of local tris is that you can show up race morning, check in, and race. With all of the hectics of race morning, you want the race to pull aside non-certified ows swimmers and certified them race morning? Or, do you want people to show up the day before to get certified for races? If a race is on a Saturday, you want folks to take a day off, come to the race site on a Friday, and get certified?
USAT, will have to mandate that the RD's require this license.... it should not effect their numbers, as you already pay the over priced usat fee which is the deal breaker in expensive tri's. I am proposing the certification, but have not mentioned no rules. I would say an athlete has 1 month before race day to get this certification. they must prove they can swim the 1/2 race distance they signed up for using the same stroke non stop andthey need to be able to tread water for 2 minutes. this can be certified by a usat coach or official. they can use previous events as a means to by pass the certification if the event was within 3 months (pure ows event or tri).
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
I've done 11 IMs. I don't think I can tread water for 2 minutes :)
To all your other points, I think that you are creating a barrier where a barrier does not need to be created. Your original intent was to decrease death rates. This does nothing to do that. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of the people that died during a tri could have passed the test that you are proposing.
Where are you going to certify newbies? In a pool or in the open water? You're expecting the RD, who's struggling to make profits, to rent a pool to certify people? There is a race in my town. You may have heard of it. It's called the Nations Tri and it's on the Potomac. The only time, year round, where people area allowed to swim where the race takes place, is during the race. How are races, without access to the open water, going to certify any newbies in the open water?
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
To all your other points, I think that you are creating a barrier where a barrier does not need to be created. Your original intent was to decrease death rates. This does nothing to do that. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of the people that died during a tri could have passed the test that you are proposing.
Where are you going to certify newbies? In a pool or in the open water? You're expecting the RD, who's struggling to make profits, to rent a pool to certify people? There is a race in my town. You may have heard of it. It's called the Nations Tri and it's on the Potomac. The only time, year round, where people area allowed to swim where the race takes place, is during the race. How are races, without access to the open water, going to certify any newbies in the open water?
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
zoom wrote:
I've done 11 IMs. I don't think I can tread water for 2 minutes :) To all your other points, I think that you are creating a barrier where a barrier does not need to be created. Your original intent was to decrease death rates. This does nothing to do that. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of the people that died during a tri could have passed the test that you are proposing.
Where are you going to certify newbies? In a pool or in the open water? You're expecting the RD, who's struggling to make profits, to rent a pool to certify people? There is a race in my town. You may have heard of it. It's called the Nations Tri and it's on the Potomac. The only time, year round, where people area allowed to swim where the race takes place, is during the race. How are races, without access to the open water, going to certify any newbies in the open water?
usat should pay, as our fees went up the past few years.
https://www.washingtonian.com/...spots-in-washington/
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
The National Harbor swim area is not a public swim area. It's a private area. The guy that runs that swim charges $25 per practice swim. It requires a permit from a private entity, to which he has some inside help to make it happen. Parking there ain't cheap either. The MCM had their expo there for the past few years. The two biggest compaint about that was that A. It's not an easy area to get to and B. they were paying $20 to park so that they can pick up their race packet. In rush hour traffic, it takes me about an hour to get there. You want a newbie to incur the time and expenses?
Sandy Point is notorious to bringing down the hammer on organized swims there. I'm part of the DCTri club. In the past, when we've come out there to do an organized group swim, we get the 3rd degree and lectures from the park rangers. Good luck in getting a permit there to certify people. They once had a triathlon there. It was canceled, due to some part, the park service there. During rush hour, it could take you an hour to get there from DC. Try coming there at 9-10 AM on a weekend during the summer. They'll turn you away due to how busy it is.
Gunston Manner, is private. You can't be a Joe Citizen, walk up to that place, pay a fee, and get in. They require a lot more than that for the privilege to swim there.
Lake Anna is awesome, best place to do a OWS in the area. It will take you a good 90 minutes (70+ miles), without traffic, to get there from DC and probably 2x as long to get back due to the way I95 is set up with the HOV lanes and traffic on i-95 during the weekend.
Go ahead and throw more stuff about DC my way. I'm sure you know more about it, living in the west coast and all, than I do. That cliff notes version that you sent me from the post doesn't paint the whole story. I've lived here for 30+ year have been in the tri scene here for more than a decade. The above stuff that I mentioned are just the cliff notes versions of why it's a bad barrier to inflict upon newbies who just want to dib and dab in the race.
You want the Nations Tri or USAT to rent any one of these places, hire people to certify newbies, and have lifguards/kayak on standby? The race is already almost $200. You want newbies to drive to take time out of their lives to do all this? It's ain't cheap doing stuff in DC. I believe the permit for the Nations Tri is about $100k. You want USAT to do all of these things, across the entire country?
Like I said, you are trying to create a barrier where a barrier does not need to be.
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Sandy Point is notorious to bringing down the hammer on organized swims there. I'm part of the DCTri club. In the past, when we've come out there to do an organized group swim, we get the 3rd degree and lectures from the park rangers. Good luck in getting a permit there to certify people. They once had a triathlon there. It was canceled, due to some part, the park service there. During rush hour, it could take you an hour to get there from DC. Try coming there at 9-10 AM on a weekend during the summer. They'll turn you away due to how busy it is.
Gunston Manner, is private. You can't be a Joe Citizen, walk up to that place, pay a fee, and get in. They require a lot more than that for the privilege to swim there.
Lake Anna is awesome, best place to do a OWS in the area. It will take you a good 90 minutes (70+ miles), without traffic, to get there from DC and probably 2x as long to get back due to the way I95 is set up with the HOV lanes and traffic on i-95 during the weekend.
Go ahead and throw more stuff about DC my way. I'm sure you know more about it, living in the west coast and all, than I do. That cliff notes version that you sent me from the post doesn't paint the whole story. I've lived here for 30+ year have been in the tri scene here for more than a decade. The above stuff that I mentioned are just the cliff notes versions of why it's a bad barrier to inflict upon newbies who just want to dib and dab in the race.
You want the Nations Tri or USAT to rent any one of these places, hire people to certify newbies, and have lifguards/kayak on standby? The race is already almost $200. You want newbies to drive to take time out of their lives to do all this? It's ain't cheap doing stuff in DC. I believe the permit for the Nations Tri is about $100k. You want USAT to do all of these things, across the entire country?
Like I said, you are trying to create a barrier where a barrier does not need to be.
__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
Post deleted by windschatten
[ In reply to ]
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
Were the 2 recent fatalities at kids races?
How old were the kids at the race today you volunteered at?
the situation you describe sounds unsafe, and also bad for future business.
That’s a poor course design IMO, glad they had adequate lifeguard support. With our kids race, we gradually move them deeper and farther from shore with each age group. The really small ones run along the bottom, it’s cute. It’s safe. It’s fun. They come back next year. The odd parent complains that their superstar swimmer was at a disadvantage because her kid actually swam. That’s the outlier and there aren’t too many like that, and we don’t do results for U13 anyway.
My sanctioning body sends officials & staff to make sure we are running a safe event. Our first year, I remember being quizzed on the spot ‘so... how many yellow caps are in the water right now?’.
I think the issue sounds like slack / non-existent sanctioning requirements and poor course design, not a swimmer competence problem. Kids can’t just swim in open water .... even swim club kids panic at the thought of seaweed. Gotta design courses that gradually require more of them as they grow and get stronger. That helps educate parents too - they see what the ‘next level up’ has to do, before registering next year.
Kids triathlon is not just shorter AG triathlon.
How old were the kids at the race today you volunteered at?
the situation you describe sounds unsafe, and also bad for future business.
That’s a poor course design IMO, glad they had adequate lifeguard support. With our kids race, we gradually move them deeper and farther from shore with each age group. The really small ones run along the bottom, it’s cute. It’s safe. It’s fun. They come back next year. The odd parent complains that their superstar swimmer was at a disadvantage because her kid actually swam. That’s the outlier and there aren’t too many like that, and we don’t do results for U13 anyway.
My sanctioning body sends officials & staff to make sure we are running a safe event. Our first year, I remember being quizzed on the spot ‘so... how many yellow caps are in the water right now?’.
I think the issue sounds like slack / non-existent sanctioning requirements and poor course design, not a swimmer competence problem. Kids can’t just swim in open water .... even swim club kids panic at the thought of seaweed. Gotta design courses that gradually require more of them as they grow and get stronger. That helps educate parents too - they see what the ‘next level up’ has to do, before registering next year.
Kids triathlon is not just shorter AG triathlon.
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [zoom]
[ In reply to ]
Sorry, OT, but I asked this on a completely separate thread and never got an answer. Since you just used the term, I thought I'd ask:
What does GA-SW stand for?
Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com
What does GA-SW stand for?
Coach at TriForce Triathlon Team: https://www.triforceteam.com
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
I don’t think certification is the solution. Tri entry fees are high enough as is.
I’d suggest that every open water tri require evidence of x-number of open water swims completed before race day. And that the RD ensures that these training swims are available to any registered participant - organised either through the event company or through a local tri or (open ) water swim club at the venue (river, lake, ocean) (out of towners can be results of completed races and or records from local tri/swim clubs).
If people want to get into triathlons that’s set in the open water then they should have some experience of swimming in the open water environment (which we all know is completely different to the pool) before a race. Panic attacks can be deadly in the water. It would help to have a medical clearance as well but I don’t know how many deaths are a result of pre-existing conditions ...
I’d suggest that every open water tri require evidence of x-number of open water swims completed before race day. And that the RD ensures that these training swims are available to any registered participant - organised either through the event company or through a local tri or (open ) water swim club at the venue (river, lake, ocean) (out of towners can be results of completed races and or records from local tri/swim clubs).
If people want to get into triathlons that’s set in the open water then they should have some experience of swimming in the open water environment (which we all know is completely different to the pool) before a race. Panic attacks can be deadly in the water. It would help to have a medical clearance as well but I don’t know how many deaths are a result of pre-existing conditions ...
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
Quote:
Many of the kids were crying from the start.Maybe the kids were there for the wrong reasons , maybe they didn't want to race and were pushed into by their parents .
This sport is supposed to be fun isn't it ? We do it for fun rather than doing it for status or medals or tattoos , dont we ?
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B_Doughtie]
[ In reply to ]
B_Doughtie wrote:
Actually what they should require is a yearly medical screening...it may not disclose all medical issues, but it atleast likely checks/covers for basic check points...which can then be assessed more thorough if abnormality shows up on medical screening.Go to the doctor to play a game?
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
synthetic wrote:
i volunteered to be a life guard....errrr... swim buddy for a kids race today, which usat certified. Many of the kids were crying from the start. Did not know how to tread water or anything. Lots of the lifeguards were bringing kids in on their boards, I had to swim with 2 kids on my back. I feel people are throwing themselves or worse children into tri's with bare minimum or no training, in open water. As our usatf fee goes up yearly (for what??) , I would like to see usat certified races have a ows mandatory test that you pass in order to participate in that race.Your post title refers to "two recent fatalities" yet your post makes no reference. Can you connect the dots, please. If you're referring to Jim' Hixs' death in Cleveland, he was an experienced and strong swimmer (or so I've read). I competed the swim and I'm a weak swimmer. The water was a challenge and the course was long but neither should have been the (sole) cause of his death. Without an autopsy, we'll never know of he had some underlying issue or, if at 75 it was "just his time". Rest is peace, Jim.
As for the kids, as noted by others, this is the parent's fault and I agree that young kids should have some basic confirmation that they can swim the distance. Not for adults, for the same reasons many others have mentioned.
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [mungub50]
[ In reply to ]
mungub50 wrote:
I don’t understand why they don’t hire an extra guard for a warm up area at all races. It seems like that would greatly reduce the stress and possibility of an incident. Especially for cold water swims.I suggested to the RD of the NJ Triathlon many years ago to have a roped off area for warmup, along with a lifeguard. They have implemented this, right next to the swim start.
However, you can't make people warm up. Those that dread the swim or are not good swimmers avoid swimming in general.
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [synthetic]
[ In reply to ]
synthetic wrote:
i volunteered to be a life guard....errrr... swim buddy for a kids race today, which usat certified. Many of the kids were crying from the start. Did not know how to tread water or anything. Lots of the lifeguards were bringing kids in on their boards, I had to swim with 2 kids on my back. I feel people are throwing themselves or worse children into tri's with bare minimum or no training, in open water. As our usatf fee goes up yearly (for what??) , I would like to see usat certified races have a ows mandatory test that you pass in order to participate in that race.So what happens when a certified triathlete has a heart attack in a subsequent triathlon and dies? How badly does the certifying body get sued to hell and back?
Won't ever happen.
----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [klehner]
[ In reply to ]
I'm not sure if it's still the case but the Chicago Triathlon (Mrs T's at the time) required a a certification like this years ago. I think it was more about the Chicago Parks department avoiding liability than actually making the swim safer.
Chicago is one of the safest swims possible. You do the entire swim within a few feet of a wall with people watching you all the time.
Chicago is one of the safest swims possible. You do the entire swim within a few feet of a wall with people watching you all the time.
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B.McMaster]
[ In reply to ]
Go to the doctor to solve the OP’s swim issues. Medical screeening would be far more preventive than swimming alone in some lake to prove you won’t have a heart attack. Proving you can swim in a lake by yourself is no where close to the specificity of what’s likely happening that’s causing swim deaths.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B_Doughtie]
[ In reply to ]
B_Doughtie wrote:
Go to the doctor to solve the OP’s swim issues. Medical screeening would be far more preventive than swimming alone in some lake to prove you won’t have a heart attack. Proving you can swim in a lake by yourself is no where close to the specificity of what’s likely happening that’s causing swim deaths.I don't disagree, but you would also lose a ton of people if you told them you need to go to a doctor 1'st. The sport would not survive.
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B.McMaster]
[ In reply to ]
No I agree but I’m giving the OP better options. Not actually suggesting it be done, just suggesting better course of action in this made up idea thread.
Eta: why does USAT not require course distance certifications? Because it’s too much of a pain in ass. They wouldn’t create anything like this because of pain in ass it would create. But we can discuss potential ways to decrease this issue- it’s just none will be applicable.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Eta: why does USAT not require course distance certifications? Because it’s too much of a pain in ass. They wouldn’t create anything like this because of pain in ass it would create. But we can discuss potential ways to decrease this issue- it’s just none will be applicable.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by:
B_Doughtie: Aug 13, 18 6:17
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B.McMaster]
[ In reply to ]
B.McMaster wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Go to the doctor to solve the OP’s swim issues. Medical screeening would be far more preventive than swimming alone in some lake to prove you won’t have a heart attack. Proving you can swim in a lake by yourself is no where close to the specificity of what’s likely happening that’s causing swim deaths.I don't disagree, but you would also lose a ton of people if you told them you need to go to a doctor 1'st. The sport would not survive.
Really, a medical screening (aka yearly physical would cause many people to quit triathlon? if that is the case, perhaps there shouldn't be the sport of triathlon.
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [B.McMaster]
[ In reply to ]
About 5 years ago at a race an good coaching friend of mine was there supporting/coaching his athletes. One of the athletes went out to warm up, got hit by a car and was killed. It gutted the coach, as he was very close to the family. He set up memorial rides/funds for the athlete who passed away, did all kinds of things for him and the family. About 6 months post death, his family contacted the coach "Sorry but lawyers are suggesting we sue you now"....The coach was just like WTF, and of course had to deal with the hassle of the whole issue. I have no clue what actually happened (i've never wanted to know because it's a damn scary proposition that could have been me that was happening to with an athlete death), but I know the extreme unwanted stress it created, even if I believe he was found to be at no fault (well after the lawsuit was brought up).
So if the OP is suggesting an way that me as a coach gets put on the hook for some random athlete I have no clue is but I passed them to get the cert because they swam 300 yards in front of me by themselves....yeah right. I'm on the hook already for the athletes I coach and control, no way in hell your going to get coaches to take responsibility for certifying random people that they may or may not know, and likely have no clue of their swimming background/ability/medical issues except for the 10 mins they swim in front of them in a non-racing situation. You'd be dumb to add your name to that type of liability issue.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
So if the OP is suggesting an way that me as a coach gets put on the hook for some random athlete I have no clue is but I passed them to get the cert because they swam 300 yards in front of me by themselves....yeah right. I'm on the hook already for the athletes I coach and control, no way in hell your going to get coaches to take responsibility for certifying random people that they may or may not know, and likely have no clue of their swimming background/ability/medical issues except for the 10 mins they swim in front of them in a non-racing situation. You'd be dumb to add your name to that type of liability issue.
Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Re: 2 recent fatalities and the swim, my experience today... USAT why not certification program!!?? [velocomp]
[ In reply to ]
velocomp wrote:
B.McMaster wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Go to the doctor to solve the OP’s swim issues. Medical screeening would be far more preventive than swimming alone in some lake to prove you won’t have a heart attack. Proving you can swim in a lake by yourself is no where close to the specificity of what’s likely happening that’s causing swim deaths.I don't disagree, but you would also lose a ton of people if you told them you need to go to a doctor 1'st. The sport would not survive.
Really, a medical screening (aka yearly physical would cause many people to quit triathlon? if that is the case, perhaps there shouldn't be the sport of triathlon.
A yearly physical isn’t going to pick up on any genetic issues. It’s probably going to be a trip to a cardiologist at a minimum, and this may or may not pick up anything.
There just aren’t a lot of deaths happening in triathlons. I don’t understand the paranoia on this, you can’t make races 100 percent safe, and you’re not going to prevent heart conditions from causing issues.
I would love there to be zero deaths ever in triathlons but it’s not the nature of life. People pass away and some times that’s going to be in tris. It’s just the nature of the issue.