Yeah Brian whenever he's in SD he always makes the group rides and couldn't be more down to earth and easy going. He doesn't even break everyone off when he pulls....he just sits up there for 5 minutes vice 20 seconds.

But Nibbles hadn't shown that ability of late, to stay with Horner to the end of a climb. He probably didn't think that possible with Horner's current form.
I was impressed with how many times Nibbles attacked before finally collapsing.
Very exciting finale, very entertaining tour.

I don't know buddy. After reading the secret race, it is possible that Horner was clean all those years. He was mainly on US continental teams during the biggest dopage years in European cycling. Horner was always a good all-rounder, and one-day rider but was always in support role when moving up to intercontinental world tour teams. Also, he was critical of Armstrong during his tenure, and how his team just rode to the front of the hardest stage and just stayed there controlling the whole race. Hamilton did testify in his book that you can be a good one-day or small stage race rider in his era without doping. The biggest red flag is that he has been on Astana / Radioshack since 08. But, even though we know that the top riders (Lance, Contador, Leipheimer, and lances old guard, etc.) were on those teams, it is hard to imagine that doping was as systematic. Particularly after 06, 07 - Operation Puerto and other doping scandals, including the TDF winner getting his title taken away. Floyd, Ullrich, Basso, Vino, Valverde, Hamilton, Rasmussen, basically the biggest non-Lance names getting kicked out. Oh, and team Astana didn't partake in the 08 tour either because of involvement of Leipheimer and Contador in Puerto. So it is possible that while Horner started at Astana, doping wasn't the norm anymore, at least not for the supporting riders. I found this site a while ago (http://cypresstrees.blogspot.com/...ce-top-10-clean.html), and it is interesting, and probably somewhat accurate. If you look at it, you can see that Horner could have always been a GC contender. Kind of sad that if Horner didn't dope all those years, that he could have been considered a "Team Leader" and possibly placed and won some grand tours. But, if you weren't doping and always rode in support, no-one would ever consider you. So it is definitely possible. And, considering the names that Horner just beat, - Valverde (Tour, Vuelta double), Roche (Tour, Vuelta double), Jouquin (Tour, Vuelta), and Nibali (Giro, Vuelta, and said he wasn't in form before Vuelta. Considering all that, and the fact that Horner won and podiumed a lot of 1 Week US Stage races in the last decade (and more recently in one-week European stage races as the sport has allegedly gotten cleaner), Horner on top is definitely a REALISTIC FEAT. And, if he had never doped all those years, no one deserves this more than him.

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Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...

Its def. easy to criticize Astana's tactics when he lost. But trying to out sprint Horner at the line would not have worked. Horner has proven to go full gas with about 1K to go previously and so far no one has been able to go with him when he has. They had only one chance to attack him early to weaken him....it didn't work.

What a great stage and race for Horner. So happy to see him to finally get the support from the beginning of such a big race!

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http://www.fraserbicycle.com/

Then why expect to be able to ride away in the first place? At the end of the day it's an equation of watts, and if he can't even sit in when Horner eats wind for him, how can he expect to ride away?

Nibbles looked strong, and you wonder if instead of putting in what must have been 6-7 surges he just stuck to Horner, whether he'd have had a better outcome

Yeah definitely. I wasn't expecting it at all, was going to originally root for Nibali and Purito. But, was pleasantly suprised when Horner came into the mix. Kind of makes me imagine what could have been if cycling wasn't as dirty in the past. But, at the same time extremely happy for Horner, and hopefully this shows we have turned a corner. And, it is a great way to see him ride into sunset! Though I am sure he will win more races. Less-likely a grand tour, but he has recently stated that he wants to be in the sport for a while. Best year I have ever seen for the three Grand Tours.

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Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...

He may have expected to lose, but hoped for better.
If you can get a gap, get away, you never know...and he did get that gap for a while...
I think his chances simply weren't very good no matter what card he played.
Didn't he have a teammate up the road to help?
Had he simply hung onto Horner's wheel and cracked as in previous stages, some would likely criticize him for not really trying.
You may be correct, that might be the smarter play.
I don't fault him for his approach, though, under the circumstances.
And my opinion, a nerd recreational cyclist, counts for naught anyway :)

It certainly was exciting.

Cheers,
Cathy

I would be interested to hear the argument about a pro riders GC potential when they are 39. Then at age 42 they get even better. By the time he is 50, he probably wins worlds.

I want to believe it, but it goes against everything we know about aging and performance potential. Is Horner some absolute freak of nature, who was just being held back all these years because everyone else was doping? I hope so.

Some thoughts on your post. ....I am skeptical when a guy at 41 sets tha VAM record a couple of days ago. Nibali said he was at 430 watts when Horner road away. .............Still think Horner was rider 15.................Funny how last year he was left off the squad, forgot what race off the top of my head, then when He defended Bruyneel and said publiclly there was no doping done, Bruyneel suddenly puts him back on the team.
I would love to see Horner as clean and finally getting his due, but the dude is setting climbing records at the end of a grand tour at 41? I guess its the state of cycling with being skeptical....again

Totally agree. One of the most exiting stages in a grand tour in a while. The crowd was crazy in that fog too.
Horner is the man.

That race was TDF and it was likely pressure from the American sponsors to have an American on the squad and clearing the air with regards to training vs racing. Horner commented on both of those points in an interview at one point. WRT the VAM. Well lots of things could have influenced that and when everyone is speculating at his w/kg when they really have no idea what he's weighing that's totally unreliable as well.

That was "likely".......but with what we know now, you think Horner really thought Bruyneel and everyone was clean? Really? As far as VAM. sure that is just one data point, which could possibly be explained. That is always the case, every "single" data point can be explained......Is it proof? No, but the fact is he still climbing better than anyone in the world right now at 41. Where are all those single day mnt stage wins over the past 20 yrs?
I honestly do not know, but I ain't putting my head in the sand

Oh no, and based on what he said I think he gave political answers that at the time wouldn't get him sued or fired. I'm sure he didn't see doping on those teams because by the time he rode for them the doping controls had tightened up and was becoming less accepted. Not to mention I'm sure the openness at Astana wasnt the same say postal/discovery.

Make no mistake, if they come out in 5 days or 5 years with solid proof that Horner doped I will not be shocked, I'd be disappointed but not shocked. Nothing professional athletes do could shock me. One of the many reasons I don't encourage my kids or any others to view them as Heros/role models etc. but that's another story.

I do give him the benefit of the doubt though and regardless it was great racing the last few weeks.

I am trying to figure out which is more surprising, Horner winning the Vuelta or Radioshack winning a Grand Tour this year.

Well, climbing better than anyone at the Giro.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Touché. RS having a winner who isn't Cancellara is always a shocker.

http://velonews.competitor.com/...at-the-vuelta_302720

Agree with all but this................................He might not of "seen" doping on those teams but He has been a pro for so long and through the meat of an era, he knew who and who was not doping.
I truly hope he is clean,,,,,and unfair even this haunting speculation. ...But they all kept their mouth shut 10 yrs ago and know all are paying with the unfair painting of a broad brush

This is an important point.
Were this Le Tour, no way does Horner finish on top. Even over the exact same course.
The Vuelta is lesser.
Still huge win and props for Horner.
But it is lesser.
So much lesser that some forget its name :)

Yeah, assuming the people timing it timed it right, assuming the wind was relatively average, assuming the road wasn't smoother than usual, and assuming a lot of strong guys actually go up that climb full gas in races past....that would be meaningful.

There is a lot of power data coming from this race including horner and nibali. Of course those files could all be manipulated, but they don't tell a story of record w/kg

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

What is not surprising is the amount of victories Tyler Farrar had

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

ask and you shall receive.



425W for 16 minutes. I have no idea what this portends. One thing i will note though, is that Horner put up 435W when he won on Sierra Road in the 2011 Tour of California, except that was on stage 4, the first challenging stage of an one-week race as opposed to a Grant Tour.


for the record, i find veloclinic and a bunch of other places (cyclingnews clinic) to be somewhat irresponsible in their assessment as they just pretend the analysis (or rather, guestimate) is accurate when they are not. That, of course, does not mean what Horner did was clean, just that there's quite a bit of ignorance out there.

was not meant as definitive proof.

That implies about 6.1w/kg if it were a long climb.
which is about what he did on long climbs
and about what people could do on long climbs in the before time, the long long ago.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Yeah but he's got Redneck power.

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