There is always talk of this'

1) shock from being in colder water
2) the margin of error in swimming is next to nothing.

I can think of atleast 2 articles on the front page of ST where someone "blacked out" on the bike, fell and another racer saw them on the road, stopped, helped them, and X minutes later an ambulance was there.

Even today, Sarah True blacked out and collapsed on the run.

So... Consider any of that happening in the swim... there is no "collapse and hit the ground" No age grouper to stop and pick you.. you just sink.

and unless someone sees you immediately, you die.

Sad news.

There's a few threads on this topic, inc one that was active just a couple of days ago.
It basically seems the combination of
-zero to 100% in an instant
- extra nerves / excitement / adrenaline
- consequences in water are much higher
- cold water seems to elevate HR disproportionately to effort / perceived effort (something I observed iver past few weeks on myself in cold water, since getting a new watch / having HR in the swim - I'm calm and experienced, totally unfazed by OW. Yet my HR was sky high for just a steady-eddy pace with no stress, familiar lake,not even racing.

I'm sure sone far more knowledge folks that me here on ST can explain better.

One thing “generally” I was wondering is if anyone has made a wetsuit low cut or without a neck. Or a safety front zip to eliminate pressure around your breathing areas.

Yes it would likely be slower.

I can’t help but think that some of this is related to anxiety/panic attack, if that happens on dry land you can just sit on a bench.

Maurice

Would that be the Desoto bib john without the additional top to go over?

So basically it looks like a pair of bibs with long pants with the suspenders over your shoulders but your chest would be free.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I suppose, or maybe just lava pants for first timers/poor swimmers. I’m still coming back to the wetsuit industry in general. IE we have several wetsuits now approaching the 1500$ range with several well marketed features, I think there would be a large market at the other end.

IE a safety wetsuit with features for first timers, uncomfortable/slow swimmers. Ie normal zip in the back, front safety zip to sternum (lol only to the sternum!!!) panic button which inflates something orange and floaty, no neck.....etc?

Don’t know, I’m not in the wetsuit business.

Maurice

Was this an experienced swimmer? In don't know much about the person. Extremely sad either way of course, but a date point I'm curious about.

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I agree with this. I am racing masters swimming going from zero to 100 percent instantly and never have a moment of that feeling of restricted breathing and panic. I get it pretty well in every wetsuit race and I am an extremely experienced tri swimmer. I never get it in non wetsuit tris

It’s not a given that these people have heart problems, it could be a legitimate serious panic attack. Was this a mass start swim? Feels like it’s more likely to happen in that scenario, wonder if there is data to support that idea.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...m_term=.afa09f10c359

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Super sad news, two guys in one race is not that uncommon anymore. Hope the one will pull though.. I found this last sentence of the article kind of odd though;

"Schuster said there is no indication that the incidents involving the two men were related."

I would say they are absolutely related, both happened in the swim portion of the same exact triathlon, at about the same time. Not sure what they were talking about here, maybe they think they ran into each other and knocked each other out?

I’ve had it twice over the past two years, both times I was about twenty pounds heavy for the wetsuit that used to fit perfectly (b70 helix) I was out of shape generally but in really good swim shape for me. Happened at swim across the lake in Kelowna during warm up, basically this unrelenting feeling that someone was strangling me.

Opened up the neck and just went super easy, finished fine in 32 for 2km....but couldn’t shake that eerie feeling for a few days. Like you I’ve done over 100 races in the open water without issues.

Maurice

Saturday AM one of our experienced cyclists fainted at the top of a climb. He's done way steeper / further climbs in the past with no issues. So very leftfield. However, was all sorted and no ambo even needed. Mainly as he was even caught as he fell by people around. In a swim situation, he could easily not be seen for several minutes.

I raced IM Wis 70.3 today. Very sad to say the least.

I can report that the water was calm and didn’t seem cold in a wetsuit. My understanding is that the athlete was a few hundred yards from the finish when he got into trouble

I also suspect more caffeine than usual could be a contributing factor. The times I overdo the caffeine, HR goes sky high and my head feels like it will explode if I go too hard. Put that in the mix with these swim starts and you might have your culprit.

I had same problem in my last race b70Helix - my neck area was done up too tightly. I felt quite a bit of pressure and compression from the suit, got a rash too. I stopped to pull it loose but it wasn't quite enough.

I think due to the work in swimming the neck and torso area want to expand while the suit is forcing things the other way. At near full exertion, one breath full of water vs air and there could be serious trouble.

I have vivid memory as a kid - I was about 10 years old, a weak swimmer out on the lake with friends. Just made it to a friend's surfboard with the most gut-wrenching panic breath episode, spitting a lot fluids I was coughing so hard. Close call to going down there.

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There are a lot of reasons that it happens in the swim.

It's the start of the race. If you have an undiagnosed health problem that's probably when an athlete will get in trouble, especially if they are in the water going hard for an hour or two.

SIPE - Swimming Induced Pulmonary Edema. Although not always the case, but very prevalent. Ironman recognized this with their safe swim program and have tried to make athletes, course staff and volunteers more aware of the condition and what it looks like.

Athletes underprepared for the demands of the swim. This is the one that no one really wants to mention. I've been a swim course director for Ironman at races. I'm also a swim coach. I know what an athlete looks like in the water when they have put in the time to do the distance. I'd say conservatively at any given race there are 40% of the participants that haven't done enough training to do the distance. You couple that with high adrenaline, going way beyond an athlete's condition level, cold water and a wetsuit and unfortunate issues can develop.

More athletes are racing. The more athletes who race the more likely there will be incidents like this one.

My condolences to the athlete's family and I hope the other athlete has a speedy recovery.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
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I wonder if number of deaths per 100,000 racers increased or decreased over the past 35 years?

I wonder why we don't hear of any deaths (or very many) in Masters swimming meets when here a wide range of ages and the participants take off at full speed also.

I wonder why we don't hear of any deaths (or very many) in Masters swimming meets when here a wide range of ages and the participants take off at full speed also. //

Maybe because they are not taking of from a running start, next to 100's of people with lanes, wearing wetsuits, most without a proper warm up, and doing something not familiar to them?? Just a guess...


And there are deaths in pool swimming, I know of two that were friends of mine, one a race, one a workout...Both top 1% of their AG in ability too...

This is my question. How much warm up does the average IM participant do for a 70.3 or full? The older you get, the longer warm up you should probably do. I think it would be valuable whenever there is a death in the swim in a tri for investigators to talk to the athlete's friends and family to try to determine what type of warm up the athlete did before the swim. Maybe there is a relationship between the type of warm up and these issues.

1st- Condolences to family and friends of the victims. To the point of this thread, I am surprised that the number of swim deaths is not much higher. I am saying this from the view of a SAG paddler in multiple races. I would estimate that 1-2 % of people who enter triathlons literally do not know how to swim. From the start, there are always 20-30 people that clearly have no idea how to swim, literally- dog paddle, elementary backstroke, etc. It’s crazy. In mass starts, and even wave starts, these people were easier to identify, as they fall way off the back quickly. With the rolling starts, no matter how many times they announce to seed correctly by time, the reality is that the more the swimmer is concerned about cut off, the earlier they will go- knowing if they miss the cut off they can keep going if they are ahead of the “hard cutoff”, which starts when the last swimmer enters the water. Sure, they will have a DNF, but if they can bike and run/walk even at a relatively slow pace they will cross the finish line and get a finisher medal! This conditioned behavior puts that 20-30 non swimmers randomly all over the scrum of swimmers. I am a fairly good swimmer, sub 30 on a 70.3, and start in the first 5%, and there are already swimmers holding on to Kayaks, or buoys, or just bobbing in the water in front of me, AT EVERY RACE. The point is, this makes it incredibly difficult for lifeguards to spot a struggling swimmer.
It is time for race directors to take safety seriously. In regard to swimming, the WTC and USAT should require that every new applicant for a license provide a signed off certificate from a licensed masters swim coach that the individual has completed a 1500 meter swim in under 45 minutes, within 3 months of the application. This would have 2 benefits- demonstrating that the person getting the license has at least basic swimming fundamentals, and introducing those that don’t to their local masters swim program :-) For anyone with documented race results, providing the race details at time of application should also be accepted.
This will NOT solve 100% of the deaths, but I am certain it would dramatically reduce them.
If someone is a poor cyclist or runner, the risk is typically not death- but when people cannot swim properly (for the event) the risks are catastrophic! If the WTC and USAT are not proactive, and do not get on top of this, the swimming deaths will stop, because the sport will die! No insurance company will take on the liability, so there will be no more races- think about it.

Here is what I think are the reasons:

1. Masters swimmers are generally prepared for swimming
2. No wetsuits strangling neckline
3. We always have a warmup session before and we often have ongoing warmup lanes or even an entire section at the other end of the pool for warmups or a diving tank. Masters swimmers almost never dive off the block without a warmup and these warmups are reasonably long (like 800m-1000m for your first event of the day)
4. There is a lower number of masters swimmers than triathletes

Monty, the running start definitely makes a difference. You have all this blood shunted to the legs and suddenly a big load for the heart for the upper body.

We have the same problem going from swimming to T1 with all the blood in the upper body and then going upright and suddenly blood has to go to legs and fight gravity too....fortunately we are well warmed up for this second heart rate spike through the roof. The first heart rate spike we're not warmed and there is no blood in the upper body....you can't even get blood flowing to the upper body in a starting pen because you'll hit other athletes swinging your arms around like Phelps on the blocks.

Monty, the running start definitely makes a difference. You have all this blood shunted to the legs and suddenly a big load for the heart for the upper body.

We have the same problem going from swimming to T1 with all the blood in the upper body and then going upright and suddenly blood has to go to legs and fight gravity too....fortunately we are well warmed up for this second heart rate spike through the roof. The first heart rate spike we're not warmed and there is no blood in the upper body....you can't even get blood flowing to the upper body in a starting pen because you'll hit other athletes swinging your arms around like Phelps on the blocks.

No insurance company will take on the liability, so there will be no more races- think about it. //

Why do you think insurance companies are paying out on these deaths? From what I hear, that is not the case. The life insurance companies are paying out of course, but unless there is some overt negligence, the race insurance is not paying...


I agree in the first 300 yards there are lots of people that have no business being out there, those are the rescues, not the people dying. Have to check with the guy compiling all the stats, but I believe most are over the 1/2 point in the swims, long after those kayak grabbers have been taken to shore. And I think this last one was within a few 100 yards from the finish? Your idea of submitting a swim cert certainly is not a bad idea, but don't think it is going to stop the flow of these horrific events we have been seeing a lot more of lately...