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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Sad for Pinot. Man, say what you want about Ineos but they know how to ride a grand tour.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Van Aert! That’s how to do a first TdF, dude has serious class. He’s got to be a fav for Worlds too.

GC over for Porte, Uran, Landa and probably Pinot. Not only lost time but wasted a huge amount of energy.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Pinot, Porte, Uran, Fuglsand all caught out and losing 1:40
sheesh
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Van Aert! That’s how to do a first TdF, dude has serious class. He’s got to be a fav for Worlds too.

GC over for Porte, Uran, Landa and probably Pinot. Not only lost time but wasted a huge amount of energy.


Green and yellow is over.

Edit: Van Aert is super strong but to be fair he also took a recovery day yesterday (and several other days) while Matthews/Sagan were going balls out all day. Today rewarded the freshest rider, though you could make a case Vivianni should have also been in the same boat.
Last edited by: Ron_Burgundy: Jul 15, 19 8:31
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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ToBeasy wrote:
Sad for Pinot. Man, say what you want about Ineos but they know how to ride a grand tour.

i'll need to watch the stage on demand; did Bernal help drive that thing for Ineos?


Carl Spackler wrote:
Van Aert! That’s how to do a first TdF, dude has serious class. He’s got to be a fav for Worlds too.
GC over for Porte, Uran, Landa and probably Pinot. Not only lost time but wasted a huge amount of energy.

indeed; temporary one-upsmanship in the grand tour stage win department for van Aert
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Edit: Van Aert is super strong but to be fair he also took a recovery day yesterday (and several other days) while Matthews/Sagan were going balls out all day. Today rewarded the freshest rider, though you could make a case Vivianni should have also been in the same boat.
The "Green Jersey is for the best sprinter!" argument. (Not.)

Love how Matthews and Sagan are consistently near the front on almost every finish except the biggest climbing stages. The "sprinters" pick and choose when they want to put in an effort.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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i'll need to watch the stage on demand; did Bernal help drive that thing for Ineos?


At least once per the announcers.

The front group was committed. Ineos and Deceuninck mostly. But Valverde even came up to take at least one pull. Mainly a group of about 6 riders working in double echelon.

The chase group was horrible. Long line of eleven taking pull at front and then dropping back all the way. At first I felt for Pinot (especially him), Uran, Fulgsang, and Porte, but the chase they mustered was pitiful. They deserve to be out of it.

Note that each of those four big losers today had only one teammate with them, except Pinot had two. But if they committed along with their teammates, that would have made nine riders working together. There were only three passengers who might not work. Uran and Porte especially seemed to me to not be working much in the chase group in the bits that I saw.

As a team, the big loser was EF Education First. They got a guy who is a rouleur and won Flanders, where was he? Where was Simon Clarke?

From cyclingnews live report, this is 40+ km out:

Quote:


  1. 16:32:26 CEST
    EF have their whole team on the front here. GC teams are making sure they're up near the front.


  2. 16:30:50 CEST
    The pace does now rise, however. EF are committing now, with Simon Clarke on the front.


Ever Fail Education just got educated.

Edit: From quotes after race, EF Education are credited by a number of riders as being one of first teams to try to create a split (Ineos tried once earlier). I think they got a little too big for their britches.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
Last edited by: H-: Jul 15, 19 9:47
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Rowe and Kwiato, was like a replay of Paris-Nice. When the gap opened they took the reins and drove it.

Ineos gets criticized for riding robotically but they deserve credit for race craft and exploiting opportunities.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [H-] [ In reply to ]
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H- wrote:
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As a team, the big loser was EF Education First. They got a guy who is a rouleur and won Flanders, where was he? Where was Simon Clarke?

I had the broadcast on a side monitor and wasn't paying real close attention. I saw EF in front at one point. Later the announcers (ITV) kept saying "this is a disaster... fail... really terrible..." etc. Was't sure what they were talking about, but maybe it was EF. I think they were also talking about the guys who fell out of the top 10 in the GC, Pinot in particular.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Trek and EF so bad right now

Edit: add FDJ to the list

EF, Trek, Sunweb are pitiful. Especially EF and Trek. EF takes a huge team pull and they blow themselves up. Porte is not a leader and Trek is suffering for that reason. Sunweb isn't leading out Matthews as much as they are leading out all the sprinters. Some forgiveness for FDJ and Pinot and I'll put their result in their today as a shame. They haven't been a shame all along though.

Tremendous teams are Ineos, DQ and Bora. Those teams know what they are doing. They have differing goals and they are achieving those goals.

Bora did a cheeky move to box in Matthews in the intermediate sprint today. That could've been payback for Matthews sprinting for the intermediate sprint a day or two before which seemed to violate the gentlemen's agreement with sprinters Viviani, Sagan, Matthew, etc who arrived at the intermediate sprint after the breakaway. Matthews laughed then while Sagan was chagrined. However, it did Sagan no good to sit on Matthews wheel in the final sprint because Viviani, Caleb and Van Aert are faster than Matthews right now. Peter started too late while waiting for Matthews; yet, Peter did extend his points lead over Matthews today.

DQ is phenomenal in this Grand Tour. Not only are they winning stages, they have the yellow and France behind them. Alaphillipe has a sense of when to attack and the guts to do so. Alaphillipe tore apart not just today's race. He tore apart the GC podium spots. Likely podium finish is now made up of a combination of two Ineos riders and two DQ riders. Between DQ and Ineos, I don't see anyone making up enough time to podium. DQ and Ineos now have a shared interest of not letting other teams back in the GC.

Ineos is a human machine. When Alaphillipe attacked, Ineos, DQ and Bora drilled it. The Ineos stars, and most of them are stars, know that they are paid to help GT win the TdeF with Bernal as a back up. With so many bad teams hurting themselves, it's a pleasure to see Ineos doing so well. Yes, it's like cheering for Real Madrid, Yankees, Patriots; yet, who likes dysfunctional teams and default winners. Most people prefer a great team and a great challenger. We seem to have that this year.

This year, we have three great teams. Ineos with GT. DQ with Alaphillipe animating them and the possible result of Mas or Alaphillipe on the podium. Bora and Sagan with the green.

Honorable mention to Lotto Soudal for riding like a team to get/keep the polka dot jersey. Several of their riders are going for KOM points to keep others out of the competition. A suitable goal for that team.

Wanty is the little team that shows more teamwork to impact and stay in the race than many of the bigger teams.

Poor Fuglsang and Astana. At least they won the CdeD, sort of pre-race consolation for them this year.

Now to enjoy a rest day after the best first week of TdeF racing that I can remember.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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To be honest, I really don't root against them. It would be nice, and more sporting so to speak if there were 2 or 3 dominant teams that were capable of making the TdF unpredictable. But it is what it is these days. I didn't mind watching last year unfold with GT. And while his personality seems subdued, I would not be disappointed if it winds up being Bernal this year. First Colombian ever to win the Tour, coming right off of Carapaz being first ever Ecuadorian to win a Grand Tour. That is awesome for South American cycling.

Understood is not that easy to simply finance mega-teams, but such is sports. I don't particularly like the GS Warriors or the NY Yankees at the beginning of the century, but I can respect them (I refuse to put NE Patriots in this category). And it makes it that much more enjoyable when somebody actually knocks them off.

And as noted previously here, they are primarily the TdF team. Sort of makes it fun to watch everyone else have at it March to June.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Jumbo Visma has 4 of 10 stage wins as well... I would say that earns a first leg of the tour nod.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
Last edited by: Sulliesbrew: Jul 15, 19 11:22
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Huge win for van Aert. Can't wait for him and MVDP to duke it out the next 5-8 years.

Quotes of the day from the NBC Ad-free broadcast...and the type of commentary that is so much better than the normal NBC broadcast...

"EF is determined to make something happen today...really trying to force something. But they're not doing any damage...did you see Valverde behind them taking a drink comfortably?" LOL, to be fair, EF did instigate the action that did do damage, but knowing the end result, it was funny.

"Cross winds coming up hovering at about 22-25 km/h. Enough to do some damage. Maybe see if they can get rid of a guy like Thibaut Pinot out who is known to get caught out in situations like this." The announcers called it before it happened...basically like everyone knows it's going to happen, and Pinot still didn't do anything about it.

Referring to EF..."Don't start a fight you can't finish, and in cycling, don't start an echelon you can't finish."

But really, I don't blame EF for starting the echelon action and having their domestiques fall back and caught in the split. It's Uran's job to stay up near the front. Kudos to Quintana and Yates for being there and staying in the top 20 positions...even coming through the front without teammates around them. Even when you watch Ineos...their guys were driving the pace with DQS but Bernal and Thomas for the most part were protecting themselves. Porte, Pinot, Uran, Fuglsang...they all got nobody but themselves to blame.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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"Don't start a fight you can't finish, and in cycling, don't start an echelon you can't finish."

That's gold. Sure, it's a long race but you'd think the contenders have done it enough times to recognize their fortunes can change in a hot minute. The prolific winners don't give anything away, and twist the knife at every opportunity.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Sulliesbrew] [ In reply to ]
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Sulliesbrew wrote:
Jumbo Visma has 4 of 10 stage wins as well... I would say that earns a first leg of the tour nod.

Yes. Individually they are magnificent. The most stage wins which includes the TTT. If I had mentioned them though, it would be with some critiques.

I wonder about their three winning sprinters. They are lucky to have three as they can't quite get Dylan to the line according to their plans. They lost their number 2 GC man today, George Bennett, today when they sent him back for water bottles at a crucial part of the stage. Their remaining GC man, Steven K is going to be a marked man now as one of the few threats time wise. It would have really helped Jumbo if Bennett could have threatened the GC with Steven K.

Yes they are good. It's their execution as a team (and not as individual riders) that one can wonder about. Other than the TTT, I'm not seeing them achieve their planned upon team goals. Yet if their plans go bad, they still do well. Good for those riders. So so for the team.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [WannaB] [ In reply to ]
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Hard to root against likable riders like Thomas, Bernal, Kwiato, Rowe. But the TdF can get kind of boring and they do look to hoover up all the talent to keep it that way. Can't necessary fault them, just don't have to like it as a spectator. Really lies on UCI to change the rules, not a team.

And you're right about March-June, can even make a similar argument about how dominant DQS is through classics.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Sulliesbrew] [ In reply to ]
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LOL hahaha that does look like my work.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
Sulliesbrew wrote:
Jumbo Visma has 4 of 10 stage wins as well... I would say that earns a first leg of the tour nod.


Yes. Individually they are magnificent. The most stage wins which includes the TTT. If I had mentioned them though, it would be with some critiques.

I wonder about their three winning sprinters. They are lucky to have three as they can't quite get Dylan to the line according to their plans. They lost their number 2 GC man today, George Bennett, today when they sent him back for water bottles at a crucial part of the stage. Their remaining GC man, Steven K is going to be a marked man now as one of the few threats time wise. It would have really helped Jumbo if Bennett could have threatened the GC with Steven K.

Yes they are good. It's their execution as a team (and not as individual riders) that one can wonder about. Other than the TTT, I'm not seeing them achieve their planned upon team goals. Yet if their plans go bad, they still do well. Good for those riders. So so for the team.

I think you're being a bit harsh. They aren't there with a full GC team, or a full sprint team, so they can't necessarily be dominant all the time. They didn't bring a squad to send 5 lead out guys for Groenwegen on sprint stages, so for the most part, he's got to freelance it to a certain extent. The TTT showed just how good they're running...that was freaking impressive. Bennett going back for bottles was a bit interesting, but maybe it just shows he's not there to contend for the GC, but ride in full support of Kruijswijk.

Having Bennett there to assist Kruijswijk in the mountains is the main thing regardless of his current standing in the GC. Be there to give him a wheel if needed, pass off some nutrition, or maybe bridge down a gap if there is a crash or mechanical that splits the group on a descent. I don't expect Jumbo Visma to "send Bennett up the road" as a GC danger and make others chase. We all know how that ends up when Ineos is driving the pace for their protected rider(s). It's basically pointless.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Sulliesbrew] [ In reply to ]
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Sulliesbrew wrote:
Jumbo Visma has 4 of 10 stage wins as well... I would say that earns a first leg of the tour nod.

Could also have been in yellow shortly if not for Bennett going back to pick up water bottles.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're being a bit harsh.

I thought he was spot on with his assessment of Jumbo Visma. The question was why he didn't include them with the three dominant teams he listed -- Ineos, DQ, and BH.

I didn't see him knocking them, just saying that despite winning 4 out of 10, they can't be called dominant like the three others. Their first victory was a bit of luck and there is no way that sending Bennett back for bottles was not a mistake. But for that, Bennett would be sitting second now and have a chance for yellow jersey -- that is an opportunity no team will intentionally pour away.

Bennett himself says it was a "massive communication cock-up."

I'm happy for Jumbo Visma but don't consider their team performance in same league as Ineos, DQ, and BH.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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I am being a bit harsh. Nearly every team would like to have Jumbo's results. I'm just basing the critique on what they said their plan was and the potential for riders to move on after this year's success.

They could become a team like DQ if they can manage the human potential there. Otherwise, they could have some on the team accepting first billing and more money on another team. My preference would be another team equal to DQ. Maybe Wow Van Aert can become for Jumbo what Alaphillipe has become for DQ. Those two men seem exceptional as they can make their race with little support (more so than Bernal IMO).

We're pretty lucky to have seen that level of racing with more to come.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [H-] [ In reply to ]
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Bennett himself says it was a "massive communication cock-up."

What a bummer for George. Called back to the team car...the same team car that stopped for a Nature Break when Primo needed them?...Come on guys.

Maybe just an unfortunate mix up. And understood, they are having great race overall and their leader is safe. But, laser focus, always.
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [WannaB] [ In reply to ]
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What a bummer for George. Called back to the team car...the same team car that stopped for a Nature Break when Primo needed them?...Come on guys.

LOL, forgot that.

Ineos and DQ just don't have those kind of incidents.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: *** 2019 Tour de France Thread (SPOILERS)*** [H-] [ In reply to ]
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H- wrote:
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What a bummer for George. Called back to the team car...the same team car that stopped for a Nature Break when Primo needed them?...Come on guys.

LOL, forgot that.

Ineos and DQ just don't have those kind of incidents.

Not any more, but certainly when Sky first started out they were pretty naive in terms of racing tactics. Remember they got a lot of criticism in 2011 when Wiggins crashed and they had the whole team wait for him including Thomas who was in white at the time. Finishing 2nd and 3rd at the Vuelta by making Froome sit up and wait for Wiggins and lose time. Froome crashed a couple of times in 2014 basically through being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There was a day (maybe 2013?) also when Froome got completely carried away at the opportunity to take some time on GC, buried his whole team working on the front and as a result ended up riding unsupported in the mountains on the next stage as all his team mates were completely shot.

Sky have got better over the years and progressed from being a very strong team who won through sheer power to being the team they are now who race smart, capitalise on opportunities and don't seem to make many mistakes or lose much time even when it's not their day (e.g. Thomas has crashed twice but they've got him back on both times). Hopefully Jumbo Visma will follow a similar progression, they've certainly got the personnel. They probably also need to pick one goal to prioritise - I don't think any team is going to beat Ineos on GC unless they go all in on GC I.e. Don't bring a sprinter, don't go for stage wins on non-GC days, pick a team of climbers and rouleurs to support your GC leader and when they're not riding for their leader they're sitting up and taking it easy.

I think the most disappointing team is Movistar who have the budget and riders, have the focus on GC, have been at it for years and still seem to be unable to make it count at the Tour. Saw it again yesterday - Quintana and Valverde were in the right place, but managed to lose Landa who wasn't even in the second group but the third, then they had half the team fighting a losing battle for Landa (and even if they'd got back into the second group they couldn't have worked as by doing so they would be pulling other GC riders back to Quintana). For me it all stems from their continued insistence on having 2-3 leaders, you simply can't protect them all in every situation. I know Ineos nominally have co-leaders this year but I also suspect that in a situation where they couldn't protect both they wouldn't hesitate to prioritise. Max Sciandri got a lot of credit for the Movistar tactics at the Giro, wonder if they should have brought him to the Tour. Almost seems like their main focus is winning the team award, which is probably the one that nobody cares about!
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