Maybe you know something......but Mr. Weiss has a current pro license and paid to race, has good sponsorship. So please enlighten me how he cost somebody else money......

Because he’s a convicted doper who shouldn’t be allowed to make a living in a sport that he cheated in. Pretty simple. Starky should have come 2nd in that race because Weiss has no business there.

I see so you’re applying your own Rules…… And not the ones that Ironman follows.

Ohhhh. I got it now. Cheating isn’t a negative thing for you. My bad. Misunderstanding.

Very well said. If people don't like the rules go to work changing them. I guess making crass comments online is easier.

Generally i think anyone caught doping should be ban for life, no excuses. But the Weiss case is a bit odd, he handed out a ban based on one person's statement, hardly crosses the reasonable doubt line in my books.....He was never ever tested positive was he? (i know so was Lance but his case is alot more compelling and he later admitted to it)

The issue with “he never tested positive” is that has nothing to do with if someone did or didn’t dope. That’s been proven countless times. My issue with a 2 year ban is that it’s almost zero negative impact on an endurance career. Taking 2 years could actually be considered well worth it if you’re young enough. Say you’re in your late twenties and a 2nd or 3rd tier pro. Taking a 2 year ban for the massive doping benefits is well worth it cuz you still have all of your 30s to come back and race. And the physiologic changes would still be there.

Would we find anything in your life if we crawled around in it 13 years ago?

I'm with the "let it go and move on" crowd but I know that's wishful thinking here.

According to some recent studies on rats, the effect of taking anabolic steroids can last for decades. One theory is that muscles have a kind of memory that allows them to bulk back up to previously attained levels even without the application of the steroid.

http://www.bbc.com/...environment-24730151

However humans aren't rats and not all PEDs are steroids. So the science isn't really there to declare definitively that taking PEDs would have a positive impact years later. It makes sense to me that it would but until there are more studies, I think we're going to continue to see bans that are a few years, not a decade or a lifetime.

Crass comments online can be the fuel for action to create change. Ironman's rules are of its own creation and with enough pressure, those rules can change, or at least the rules the 2nd placer slipped through can be tightened to prevent the likes of him robbing greater athletes in the future. Forums have proven pretty powerful agents of change with regard to challenging systems of power. We here on these forums are influential and have power in our procrastination from work and in our persistent pettiness.

It is interesting how some folks get angry at those who challenge such systems of power or the status quo. I guess I wonder why folks like Beachboy wear their emotions on their sleeves rather than interrogating their emotions attached to their preferred stance. After years on this forum, it just gets so reductive: interpretive vs radical humanist or structuralist paradigms. The prior serving up a healthy dose of paternalistic, self-righteous crankiness with the latter tending to be a bit more open minded. If humor is involved, the prior uses humor at others' expense, while the latter seems to be a bit more self-deprecating. If I had to go out on a limb, I'd guess the prior also believes a tad bit more in the concept of a meritocracy, may be more likely to value anecdote over statistics; probably has a shorter shelf-life on these forums and in the sport - probably because the power structure they identify with inevitably progresses and a general lack of openness to change makes the sport through their eyes less good and they become embittered with their once-sport.

The doper in this case is a footnote, and he's taking money out of the pockets of worthy athletes, and speaking up and not dropping the topic and pushing against the system of power allowing a doper to exist in our sport will create the tipping point(s) needed to make our sport more clean and reduce the prevalence of future footnotes.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

The crowd you claim to identify with isn't so black and white.

If a pedophile goes to jail and serves their time, with your black and white "let it go and move on" logic, that person should be allowed to open a daycare for young children. Rather, that person has lost the trust of society and while they have the right to re-integrate into most aspects of society, they do not have the right to integrate into parts of society where they present a danger to others.

The doper in this case has violated a lot of our trust, not all, but a lot of us. So, using the anecdote above, while you may be comfortable with your kid spending their day in the pedophile's dank basement daycare, maybe you can understand that not all of us are comfortable with that. I wish that you then wouldn't partake in your stated "wishful thinking" with regard to us feeling uncomfortable with our children in that same basement. just sayin' (well really, just thinkin').

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I don't disagree with you but can u imagine if you just won Kona and someone went to report that u dope and as a result u get a life long ban without due process. It's one man's word against the other....

Can you provide an example of that happening to someone where they get a ban strictly because a single person reported a suspected doper, and there was zero due process?

I can't.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I very big difference using paedophilia and someone using PED's. Yes he may have breached our trust for personal ambition once in a time but to be label it a sickness and that he can no longer be trusted around anyone is way out of context. How do you even come up with such a comparison??? Just like a drafter violated our trust and should never be trusted with our kids in a basement. Where do we draw the line at cheating and the way it is viewed?

Ummmm yeah, there's a big difference. never said the two were similar. the point was that the world isn't so black and white that we when someone abuses our trust that we give them the keys to the kingdom upon return. the ridiculous comparison was for comedic value.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

This is also similar to what monty has posted in relation to building certain characteristics while using PEDs that have long term effect and I enjoy the discussion. I have read some of the studies on this topic and yes it was on lab rats and then assumption of what may happen in humans. What I posted previous may not seem to have answered the question because it is too complex to answer since there are so many types of drugs and often research is done primarily on using only testosterone, whereas, real life humans in that seedy world have become their own lab rats by the thousands over the last 50 years using a variety of drugs and often stacking drugs. I can tell you a lot about this side of things and the risk I an others have taken. Some have already passed away long ago from health complications. Some heavy users like Rich Piana died early because there are potential long term irreversible effects of GH, such as, enlarged organs and thickening of tissue than can cause complications. There are those using insulin to supplement the GH use. Too many variations and things going on. Then there is the latest with peptides and SARMs and even hardcore bodybuilders are nervous about using these. The long term effects, good and/or bad, are unknown.

Does old school blood doping have the same effect and lasting effect as GH / insulin? Is the muscle memory benefit the same with blood doping as using androgens? IMO, there are too many types and variations of things going on and it is ever changing to pin it down.

IMO - a natural competitor probably does really not need to worry if a user that has been clean for several years still has the benefit of muscle memory if indeed that is still in play. The concern is if they can be trusted in future competitions to abide by the rules. Just from observing a multitude of users over the years (from heavy users to aging family guys on extremely light HRT doses) most plummet back down to very normal performance levels that a well trained natural athlete can have a good possibility of beating in competition. I do see the potential for long term effects, be it muscle memory, or something not discovered yet going on. Even the studies are not really sure and often state more research is needed. To me it becomes very difficult to really pin down because the countless variations of types of drugs being used, the timing of use, the doses and if the user is stacking multiple drugs at once. In my case I was often on over 6 drugs during a cycle of unfettered use because I did not have to worry about the cheating/testing issue. It also like the contraindication list that comes with each type of drug that list a multitude of possible side effects. Not everyone obviously will experience liver failure, but some do. Not everyone has positive gains from GH use alone or in a stack of drugs together. It really becomes far more difficult to be clear and when research is done almost all the time with just testosterone it doesn't tell us enough.

So I agree that because it is unknown that a person caught in a drug test and it becomes fairly evident (no TUE or other reason) they had intent to cheat and should know the penalty for cheating. I understand if I am speeding in a car 15 mph over the speed limit that I deserve a penalty. I speed all the time so I am indeed breaking the law and I know that I am breaking the law. When the officer writes me a ticket I personally think it is absurd to say, "this is not fair. I should be able to break the law when I want." I knew the rules of driving before I broke the law and I understood the range of penalties laid out and how it will impact my future driving record and the financial loss.

It is a tough thing for these federations to weigh out and set rules on the degree of penalty. How many Moats are out there that know the penalty and simply do not care and do not care who they bump off the podium and do not respect the rules, the federation and most importantly the other athletes. They are in fact out to cheat to win no matter what they say that sounds like a good justification and IMO they are well deserving of a lifetime ban without pity. The first catch the athlete does deserve to look into the possibility of tainted supplements (because that is possible), but that too is the responsibility of the athlete to investigate the purity of the product and should not be the burden of the federation to test products and put out an approved product list to athletes. This of course is just my opinion and stance that I believe the penalty should be high and that I have been around a lot of these types through the years and I personally wouldn't trust their claim of innocence in future events. I wouldn't write what Starky posted, but I do have a similar feeling as him toward those who have cheated before. Cool thing is my opinion means little as an outsider that is not involved in endurance competition in any way so it has little value.

Felt Rider - Just out of sheer, sheer curiosity, how much money per month were you spending on your drugs back in your body-building hey day??? Someone on ST, maybe you, commented once recently that steroids were $400-$500 per dose, but did not say how often a person needed to take a "dose". I can't imagine many guys could afford $500/day as that would be $15,000/month or $180,000/yr. So, if you would not mind telling us, what were your costs??? Also, where/how did you buy this stuff???

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I was going to post something, but I thought it best to send you a PM.

He served his suspension and IS allowed to race. You and Starky are awfully butthurt about this, time to get over it. FWIW, he wasn't caught doping in tri, just cycling, different sports.

Yeaaaa. It was Cycling! Doesn’t help him in tri!!

Attitudes like that keep our sport dirty.

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I was with Starky when he tweeted this and I thought it was awesome. Not my style, but still awesome.

I want to see lifetime bans for major doping offences. So do many other pros. Unfortunately, we don't have those... yet. Elite sport is a privilege, not a right. Cheating in such a way should forfeit that privilege forever.

I've also lost money and missed podiums due to sanctioned dopers. It's frustrating like nothing else. I've written angry race reports, then deleted them without posting, resenting my silence but knowing it's generally the smarter move.

I don't really know what the best approach is in cases like this. Starky has carved out a niche as a professional loudmouth, which I admire and see the entertainment value of as much as the next triathlon fan. At the same time, most sponsors and other business partners (like the WTC) seem to prefer a narrative and presence that is unwaveringly positive and professional.

I'm not one for passive or overt aggressiveness. Instead, I completely ignore these athletes. I recap events as if they didn't even exist. I won't necessarily call them out, but I sure as hell don't have to be my usual friendly self to sanctioned dopers, make them feel welcome in our sport, acknowledge their tainted accomplishments or support their misguided sponsors. That seems to be the de facto approach among most pros.

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CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
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Whatever available on public domain seems to suggest that. Someone reported him, he got a ban which was later lifted because that person wouldn't repeat it. But another agency decided to override it. I am sure there is more to it than that...
If you were called for jury duty for a murderer or rape would you convict someone based on one person's testimony?
If Weiss is guilty, yes life time ban for sure, this one is a bit flimsy...

agreed - how does starky's tweet help us get there?

answer: it doesn't.

he's got an online following and, as you say, a persona as a bit of a rebel. so start an online petition to lobby IM to change their rules. or come up with a public agreement among athletes to make a demonstration (or wear an armband, or whatever) if you have to share a podium with a doper. reach out to all your followers to ask them how you should proceed, or what they think the best way forward is for the sport. give some lectures to tri clubs or university sports teams. put a debate up on youtube. write an op-ed for a paper or a website.

tweeting like a mean 16 year old girl? not how things change.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

speaking of Nationals, way to hold off Ricky Flynn. That boy can fly. Congrats.