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"The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling??
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OK, Here is a question that came up on the ride today. When a motorist does something completely dangerous and put a cyclist at risk is it OK to give them the finger? My logical side says that it probably just makes things worse for cycling in general (i.e. builds further resentment) but every time it happens my adrenaline goes through the roof and out comes the bird. When will these buttheads learn that leaving 2cm while passing is not safe?

Today I flipped off a guy and he stopped. I coasted by and explained that he should leave some room (no profanity, I think that is wrong because often there a kids near by and letting the f-word go really does not required any creative thought). Anyway I did not dismount and just continued on my way.

My other person peeve is people who honk right behind you to get a reaction. In this case I think the finger is totally justified. They fired the first shot...

Any thoughts?
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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I have had to get physical after flying the bird on more than one occasion. I nearly got my ass kicked once by a group until I started spraying mace. I would say it isn't a good idea, unless you are prepared to fight a group. You never know how many are in the car...
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Good point about the safety aspect of flipping off a group. My other thought was to use an ambiguous two-finger hand gesture (kind of like a peace sign but sideways) that would convey a message but leave the other person guessing.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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Funny you bring this up, on my ride last night. I'm waiting at the light. One car in front of me and a couple behind. Light turns green, I clip back in, and as I'm crossing the road I hear from behind me - "use the sidewalk you fucking spandex faggot"...........no shit, that what he said........what a nice guy - eh!. I looked behind and it was some guy in the passenger seat. Last year at this time, I would have yelled something not so pleasent back, however, now that I'm again practicing Christian principles, and I just kind of smiled. I think middle fingers and yelling stuff back just makes it worse. Plus other motorists see us reacting back, and it just leaves a bad impression, most people probably just see our reaction, and they say "did you see what that cyclist who thinks he/she owns the road just did?"



People I've loved, I have no regrets
Some I remember, some I forget
Some of them living, some of them dead
All I want is to be home ".....Foo Fighters, Home

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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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To elaborate on the whole group thing, I ended up riding through about five peoples' yards and two alleyways getting away from a group in a car, and I did not even fly the bird.

Lesson here is this: people are psychos, and as much as I yack about the UCI, I fear motorists more than them on any given day. Please resist the temptation to react to motorists. I want to seee you posting on here for a long time.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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Kindly wave back and know that most of the anger they have comes from the iritation created by having the steering wheel rub on their large bellies. It is like road rash, only on your belly button. You would be upset too.

If they give you the finger, then know that is thier way of telling you that you are number one and they are trying to motivate you. Keep making perfect circles.

Josh
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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That why this is such a good forum. I think so far the "Hollow Wave" tactic is probably the best. The best revenge is living well and rising above is not bad either.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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Flipping them off just increases the bad feeling toward cyclists. Of course, the retaliation for YOUR action will probably be felt by ANOTHER cyclist ... odds are it'll be one that never did anything negative to anyone.

Cyclist who fly the bird deserve all the ass-kickings that come their way.

I always love these threads. The middle finger? what's the point? Seems to be an analogous situation to high school dickheads in the proverbial "F--- you!" "No, F--- you!", "No, Really, F--- You!", blah, blah blah ... and the last thing anyone will do is throw a punch. If you're gonna fight, then do it ... if not, forget all the theatrics.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a pretty big guy, 6'2" 210lbs. They might get out of the car, but when I take off my helmet and kick off my shoes to go Kung-fu on their arse, they will turn around and run.

My only worry is when the small guy goes back and grabs his shotgun. This goes back to the "carrying a gun while riding" thread huh?

:)

Actually, I'm typically not into fighting, but I do stand my ground. And I too hate the honkers who pass by. I try to do the waveing thing instead of the finger though, as other people have pointed out, it's probably just bad politics to give the finger.

Most people where I live, Macon Ga(anywhere you go here, you are going to be two miles from 1956), are big hicks who smoke cigs and throw bottles on the road, along with waste paper from their sack of 20 Krystals they bought. If you wave to them, they just think... "Stupid sissy bike boy... I showed him up and he just waved. WHat a loser"

Anyway, enough rant.

Oh, and what about bugs to the face. Sheesh, I caught a big giant bug in the face today on my 56mile ride and it nearly knocked me over. I pulled over and wiped a face full of yellow goo off. *joy* :)

Trae

--
Trae McCombs
TSR - Sponsored by the Masses. Racing for the hell of it.
Ironman Finisher 2005 -- 14:09:18
Last edited by: occy: Jun 25, 05 15:31
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [occy] [ In reply to ]
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I still don't understand why more folks don't just take the little drive to the outskirts of town and ride the country roads, event-free. Everytime I see someone on a bicycle in town, they are "acting like a car that's going 15 mph" (20mph under the speed limit). They won't get over, they cause all traffic to slow down, are selective in which traffic laws they choose to obey, etc. We all complain about old ladies that drive slow ... but somehow cyclists avoid the same criticism?

Amazing, tomorrow I will ride 60-70 miles and I may see 10 cars (7AM to 11AM). Why? Because I go to the outskirts where the focus can be on cycling and not "dodging traffic". Who wants to spend their workout with their head on a swivel looking out for anything and everything?

I really don't get it. My "Tour de Farms" time is some of the most enjoyable time of my week. Riding in town just plain ol sucks ... except for the fact that all the houses/buildings cut down on the wind ... which can get mighty strong out in the open.

It really does confuse me.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Last edited by: TripleThreat: Jun 25, 05 15:40
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I ride with the hicks in the sticks too. Hwy 18 has a big enough shoulder, but things like Upper River road where there is virtually no shoulder makes it harder. Most people are nice. It's the few yahoo's that cause the problem.

Trae

--
Trae McCombs
TSR - Sponsored by the Masses. Racing for the hell of it.
Ironman Finisher 2005 -- 14:09:18
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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I don't see any way it could possibly be good for cycling. The best thing you can do is not give a reaction to the people who are rude and to thank people with a wave who give you a nice safe berth.

As somebody else mentioned, do what you can to avoid traffic in the first place.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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I've lifted the finger in the past. I think it can lead to nothing good. My training partner and I have gone to the thumbs-up with a smile. It confuses people. And it has a different meaning in non-American cultures : ).
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [Chappy] [ In reply to ]
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Hah, Good one Chappy, I'll have to remember that. ;)

Trae

--
Trae McCombs
TSR - Sponsored by the Masses. Racing for the hell of it.
Ironman Finisher 2005 -- 14:09:18
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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Odd that this was posted today...

I TOTALLY against giving the bird, having had one bad experience several years ago. Now, I always wave and smile, often accompanied by a thumbs up.

Today, my friend and I were avioding some major potholes (which may cause a flat or a crash), and some dink drove up fast behind us and honked. He then zoomed by me, and was within an inch (literally) of hitting me. It scared the CRAP out of me - so I unleashed the bird along with a loud F*** you! It was simply a Knee-jerk reaction, but I felt like a dummy afterwards.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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Bikes are vehicles, and belong on the road. Where should a cyclist ride, on the sidewalk? (where I live, that is ticketable). Natural-resource-burning, gas-guzzling, crappy SUV drivers are going to have learn to deal with bikes on the road. I do drive, but am always SUPER respectful to cyclists on the road. A driver MAY be slowed down no more than 10s because of a cyclist. People who get pissed about having to touch their brakes need to get over it. I think that if a motorist honks at a cyclist, they should be ticketed (if caught, obviously).

I used to drive to the edge of the city to ride - but that is silly. Why should I get in my car, sit in traffic for 40 minutes burning gas, when I could be outside enjoying? Besides, even on the most remote rural roads, we get honked at by the stupid hicks anyway. There is no escaping jerk drivers.

Sidenote: Even though I totally have an attitude of entitlement regarding bikes on roads, I ALWAYS defer to cars. They are bigger, and I'm not stupid.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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As for driving to the outskirts: Today was one of those days where getting a ride in meant going straight from home inorder to get 40k in. I usually drive out to a small town and take dack roads from there but it was not in the cards today...
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [chris_gr] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes it hard not to let the middle finger fly but I try if at all possible not to. My thinking is I can be right and as I am bleeding on the ground on can be assured of the fact of how right I am. I am on a 20 pound bike and they are in a several ton car/suv/truck, by that alone I am much more vulnerable if things get out of control.
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [Drea] [ In reply to ]
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Drea ...

Bikes are vehicles, and belong on the road. Where should a cyclist ride, on the sidewalk?

Obviously. I have never said that bikes should not be on the road. I do question cyclists (especially the ones I see) that choose to ride on the busiest roads, where there is no shoulder, countless intersections (including entrances/exits to businesses, stoplights, etc), and high traffic.

A driver MAY be slowed down no more than 10s because of a cyclist. People who get pissed about having to touch their brakes need to get over it.

Again, I question why cyclists ride on high traffic roads that do not have space for [1] the cyclist to move over (ride the white line, so to speak), or [2] for the car to safely pass without coming close to the cyclist or having the straddle a lane line, or both.

Why should I get in my car, sit in traffic for 40 minutes burning gas, when I could be outside enjoying?

I understand that in some locals that free and open country roads aren't 2 miles away (as they are for me). I lived in KC (Shawnee-Mission) for 6 years (before I started my training), and I could not imagine trying to ride on Johnson Drive, Shawnee-Mission Pkwy, Lamar Ave, or any other 4-6 lane high traffic road.

You mentioned the key word "enjoying". That is where my perspective is coming from. When I ride I have 3 goal, [1] log time, [2] log miles, [3] try to keep a good pace. I, personally, do not see how one could do this (let alone get the "enjoyment" and the free feeling that cycling provides, by dodging cars, manipulating intersections, etc. If one cannot get to a country road or sledom-used highway, I wonder why they just don't ride lower-traffic roads? My feeling is that there is more involved than just "riding" ... it's almost as if the cyclist is trying to make a statement to busy traffic. Moreover, they seem to expect traffic to not only accept, but agree with, that statement.

Sidenote: Even though I totally have an attitude of entitlement regarding bikes on roads, I ALWAYS defer to cars. They are bigger, and I'm not stupid.

I share this sentiment, and only go one step further by stating my preference to seek out and ride roads where there is less opportunities to "defer to traffic".

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As for driving to the outskirts: Today was one of those days where getting a ride in meant going straight from home inorder to get 40k in. I usually drive out to a small town and take dack roads from there but it was not in the cards today...

I completely understand. I am also not advocating an abondonment of bikes from the roads, just suggesting for maximal enjoyment with minimal conflict ... bikers choosing lower-traffic roads.

---------------------------------

Back to the finger .... each cyclist represents the group. Flying the bird reflects on the whole group. If I were to flip someone off, I would expect them (especially given the size of the average tiathlete) to be waiting for me at the next available intersection to have the standard-issue "You gotta problem buddy?" argument. AFAIK, not many people fly the bird to someone that bumps into them in a bar, nudges them on an elevator, or is rude to them on the sidewalk. I perceive that to be due to face-to-face nature of those situations. I caution those that execise their right to free expression, that being on a bike is not a free pass to do someting you otherwise would not do. In my experience, the right to free speech is often trumped by Newton's 3rd Law, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction ... which in this case, the reaction is more often than not "greater in severity".

Just as all members of a team are reps for the group, each cyclist is a "walking billboard (one of my fav terms) for the group of cyclist. It is unlikely that one's actions do not reflect on others' perceptions of the whole.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: "The Finger": Good or Bad for Cycling?? [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Drea ...

[B]Bikes are vehicles, and belong on the road. Where should a cyclist ride, on the sidewalk?[/B]

Where I live (Denmark) we have bike lanes between the road and sidewalk in all towns, so that's where all the cyclists ride, and there's a lot of cyclists in the Danish cities. There's often bike lanes between towns too.
Last edited by: Twitchslow: Jun 26, 05 3:32
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