"Review" threads and the vendor chiming in

Nov 2, 11 8:45

Post #1 of 22 (4983 views)

I've noticed that ST is a common place for people to post questions asking for reviews of coaches, products, etc. I've done it myself before.

I used to ask these 'review' type questions on the forum, when I was looking for honest, unbiased, uninfluenced opinions on the item or service in question. Good or bad, fair or not, I'd take it (and with a big grain of salt.)

Sometimes, the dealer/vendor/coach of the item being reviewed chimes in on the post. (In the posts I've seen from them it always has been in a nice, thoughtful, and 'we're here to help' type of way, and hasn't been antagonstic at all. I do appreciate their willingness to be helpful and available.)

Thing is, I've realized since I've had several of those vendors reply on my threads, that I'm not asking the questions anymore. I'm simply not interested in hearing at all from the vendor or coach in question, precisely because I want to hear unfiltered , unbiased opinions from real users on how it has worked out for them. The moment that coach/vendor shows up, there is a bias - people will be more hesitant to post negatively. At least a few threads I've seen have ended abruptly after a coach showed up and said, "I'll be happy to answer your questions - just email us and we'll help you out.' Not that that's a bad answer, but it clearly shut off the willingness of other people who had critiques of the program, as sometimes there were more than several legitimate critiques posted immediately prior.

In academic science, when we discuss research or even products, we place a valuable premium on being able to have group discussions without having the original author present where we can be as harsh as we want about the data and the science without worrying about hurting someone's feelings or withholding judgment because we don't want to be perceived as rude. We're basically trying to take the personal aspect of the author out of the issue completely. (On the converse, we also have separate sessions where we're happy to invite the person to the discussion, but we know it will be a different type of discussion.)

At least for me, it's come to the point where I won't even ask a review question about coaching whatsoever on ST because of the high probability that the coach will chime in, and I also heavily discount threads regarding reviews of various services when I see the vendor/coach chime in. Just curious what others felt about this practice. (Yes, I have my flamesuit on.)

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 8:54

Post #2 of 22 (4959 views)

I couldn't agree with you more, however for the most part I think its more of a passion that these guys chime in, and not necessarily a blind plug on their product or services. Triathlon seems to be an industry where people still, for the most part, are really passionate about and I cannot say that for many other industries.

That being said...

My favorite example of a review is the constant 'P4 is the fastest bike because an unbiased Cervelo wind tunnel test said so...' plug.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 8:55

Post #3 of 22 (4947 views)

furiousferret wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more, however for the most part I think its more of a passion that these guys chime in, and not necessarily a blind plug on their product or services. Triathlon seems to be an industry where people still, for the most part, are really passionate about and I cannot say that for many other industries.

That being said...

My favorite example of a review is the constant 'P4 is the fastest bike because an unbiased Cervelo wind tunnel test said so...' plug.

I agree with you - I'm not trying to paint the vendors/coaches in a bad light - I honestly believe they are just trying to be as helpful as possible (which I do appreciate.)

I just think their efforts for helpfulness in this cases are misguided.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:00

Post #4 of 22 (4931 views)

let me give you a counterexample to your philosophy, go read this old exchange between rappstar and gerard from cervelo:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._string=naca;#210018

certainly there are vendors who spew a bunch of crap here, but some of the guys from Cervelo, Felt, Trek, and Specialized have some of the best posts on slowtwitch.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

SeasonsChange

Nov 2, 11 9:07

Post #5 of 22 (4909 views)

actually i dont mind vendors chiming in. it lets me know when cool new stuff show up. bad products or grossly biased reviews get bitch slapped by the ST aero hand.

Last edited by: SeasonsChange: Nov 2, 11 9:07

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:13

Post #6 of 22 (4883 views)

Whether or not the vendor/coach chimes in, the thread is public for them to read. I don't see a big difference whether people feel more open to criticize in either case (i.e. vendor/coach responding, or not responding).

Second, what are you proposing as a solution, or are you just sharing your thoughts on the matter? I personally just ignore the propaganda while focusing on the "unbiased" posts (if there is such a thing).

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:15

Post #7 of 22 (4875 views)

certainly there are vendors who spew a bunch of crap here, but some of the guys from Cervelo, Felt, Trek, and Specialized have some of the best posts on slowtwitch.

Thanks, Jack.

Naturally, we are biased towards our own product/brand - I think that is understood. However, the good product vendors who contribute here know that the bigger picture is also important.

In the end I hope that someone will buy the product/brand that I represent, but if you know selling and sales, you know that at some point in time, you have to step away, and let the customer make up their own mind.

Whatever happens, you hope that you have contributed to the collective knowledge for everyone involved.

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:17

Post #8 of 22 (4861 views)

I don't mind that they chime in, either. If anything, it's nice to know that they're listening to us.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [Travis R] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:36

Post #9 of 22 (4822 views)

Travis R wrote:

I don't mind that they chime in, either. If anything, it's nice to know that they're listening to us.

X2 on this. I have found that most replies from vendors are usually very helpful.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [timboricki] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 9:45

Post #10 of 22 (4784 views)

Um, I don't see a problem with it.

In fact if I have an issue, their presence would not make me clam up. If anything I'd be more detailed in my responses and perhaps even more critical, good or bad.

As long as nobody misrepresents themselves I think it is all healthy. Just because some people are too shy to talk in front of people they have a beef with doesn't mean the rest of us should miss out on the discourse.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [faded_memories] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 10:27

Post #11 of 22 (4693 views)

if it bothers you that much just put - independent answers only in the title please

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [spagoli] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 10:40

Post #12 of 22 (4662 views)

spagoli wrote:

if it bothers you that much just put - independent answers only in the title please

Good advice - will do that in the future. I used to not worry about this until I got into scientific research and saw the impact of bias, especially bias that you're not even aware of, on the results for both commercial and noncommercial research. Despite what people say, I have definitely seen subtle effects of it on various review posts, etc. on ST.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 12:12

Post #13 of 22 (4587 views)

lightheir wrote:

Thing is, I've realized since I've had several of those vendors reply on my threads, that I'm not asking the questions anymore. I'm simply not interested in hearing at all from the vendor or coach in question, precisely because I want to hear unfiltered , unbiased opinions from real users on how it has worked out for them. The moment that coach/vendor shows up, there is a bias - people will be more hesitant to post negatively. At least a few threads I've seen have ended abruptly after a coach showed up and said, "I'll be happy to answer your questions - just email us and we'll help you out.' Not that that's a bad answer, but it clearly shut off the willingness of other people who had critiques of the program, as sometimes there were more than several legitimate critiques posted immediately prior.

In academic science, when we discuss research or even products, we place a valuable premium on being able to have group discussions without having the original author present where we can be as harsh as we want about the data and the science without worrying about hurting someone's feelings or withholding judgment because we don't want to be perceived as rude. We're basically trying to take the personal aspect of the author out of the issue completely.

I think you've made some very good points. Not sure if you want a 'vendor' perspective, but I would agree that there is bias. But, in many ways, it is unavoidable. On this forum there is bias from all sides, the users, the triathletes, the beginners, the veterans, the cyclists, the aero weenies, the 'it's-all-in-the-engine' devotees, the vendors, the vendors who share their company affiliation, the vendors who are "cloaked" as just regular users, the forum administrators, the forum owner, the list goes on and on. It is hard to get away from all of our biases. We all have different agendas, some are open, some are hidden, some we are not even aware of ourselves. In my experience here as a long time lurker and as a poster, I've discovered a few things.

If you study the posts, it is clear that the "vendors" (I'm using this term in the broadest sense) on this forum vary as much as individuals. Some are employees under big holding companies with the major profit motive of feeding the stockholders. Some are small businesses. Some are personally really passionate about the sport and the technology, some are not. Some are very smart, some are less so. Some have lots of years in the sport, some have less. When hearing customer complaints, some vendors truly want to hear the feedback as they see it as a way to constantly improve their products. Some see their customers and their complaints as just a big pain in the a*s. And if you start reading some of their posts, it is pretty obvious to see that, over the long run, it is hard to hide.

So I think, rather than to paint all 'vendors' with the same brush, it would be better that to acknowledge that some will indeed shut down critical but constructive conversations about their product or service, while other vendors clearly welcome it, some even thrive from it. Heck, some of the vendors (like me) were just regular athletes for years before we even considered going into the tri biz. Well before we got into making a tri product, I found some of vendor and user discussions on this forum very enlightening and enjoyable. Others, I knew not to waste much time with. And it didn't take very long at all to figure out who was who.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 13:48

Post #14 of 22 (4495 views)

With respect, "unbiased opinion" could be argued by definition to be an oxymoron. Even in research, if one is setting out to prove, disprove, find or negate ANYTHING, then you are going into it with a bias.
I am biased about just about everything triathlon. I also value having the manufacturer take the time to monitor and respond in kind to these kinds of threads. If a "reviewer" is not comfortable with having a dialog about their opinion of said product or service on a forum where they can stay completely anonymous, why on earth would you consider their review even viable? Your objection (for lack of a better word) to having the vendors "chime in" has me a bit baffled.
As previously stated, I think the vendors are a great source of information, as no one else has more information about their product. What better place to learn about their products and services than on an open forum when you can address them publicly?

Disclaimer: Yes I do manufacture a very small line of triathlon specific products. My entire life is this "sport". I either am biking, swimming, running, or am doing my very best to deliver a better product to my customer. So I freely admit that my response is quite biased. My point is that to some degree everyone�s is. Just read some race reviews. I can find somebody who had the exact opposite experience doing the exact same race (not quite apples to oranges, but is an easy example).

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 14:15

Post #15 of 22 (4452 views)

In another forum which I post on (a wine forum) the owner of the forum requires all people who're In The Business to have either their company name in their sig / screen name or ITB (Winemaker / Store owner / etc) in thier sig so that people can tell who's got something commerical going on.

On here it's often hard to work out who's a pro / sponsored / works for a company to attempt to weed our the chaff but can be very valuable when you see Vince@HED or SuperDave with his felt sig posting as you know you're getting more accurate information.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Chicks are like Voltron, the more you can get, the better it is." -Tucker

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 14:22

Post #16 of 22 (4439 views)

lightheir wrote:

Good advice - will do that in the future. I used to not worry about this until I got into scientific research and saw the impact of bias, especially bias that you're not even aware of, on the results for both commercial and noncommercial research. Despite what people say, I have definitely seen subtle effects of it on various review posts, etc. on ST.

so call it out when you see it.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 14:53

Post #17 of 22 (4382 views)

lightheir wrote:

I used to not worry about this until I got into scientific research and saw the impact of bias, especially bias that you're not even aware of, on the results for both commercial and noncommercial research. Despite what people say, I have definitely seen subtle effects of it on various review posts, etc. on ST.

In my biased opinion where is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. True objectivity simply does not exist. As a scientific researcher you are no doubt aware of the impact the observer has on the observed. It is simply impossible to give an unbiased opinion because opinions by there very nature are biased.

That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real." -Ramana Maharshi

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [AG] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 16:09

Post #18 of 22 (4308 views)

you're confusing the scientific method with having an opinion... not the same

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 17:10

Post #19 of 22 (4257 views)

Do you think its possible to have an unbiased opinion?

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [AG] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 17:26

Post #20 of 22 (4239 views)

I don't know, in the absolute, but for the purpose of the OP I'm sure my opinion, presenting all sides of an argument or disclosing all info that factored into my opinion would be less biased than one of the industry reps' thoughts on their own products

Your leap from hisenberg's principle being a fact to no opinion is unbiased was a bit to far

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 17:29

Post #21 of 22 (4229 views)

ericM35-39 wrote:

I don't know

That bit makes sense. The rest not so much.

You either get it or you don't. And it is absolute.

Re: "Review" threads and the vendor chiming in [AG] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 11 17:33

Post #22 of 22 (4219 views)

Your literal definition and the op's are different

Anyway, straw man. Are you arguing that due to hisenberg's principle, it's ok for industry reps to review their own products?

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

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