That's some high end shit....I'm interested to see what the real swimmers say about this.

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it is because she is going faster

"it is because she is going faster"

Not necessarly. I've seen swimmers do this while warming up, not really swimming fast at all.

i dunno then. hah. i just know that as you go faster you tend to sit up a lot higher in the water, espesh cos of your kick. you can still swim at a slow pace and be relatively high in the water tho.

i think that the press of teh left forearm (when teh left arm is plane-ing) will keep the body position up. also take a look at head position and right arm recovery. my experience is that poor head position (either too high or too low, often related to being uncomfortable while breathing) as well as not dragging the recovering hand w/ a high elbow by the side leads to poor body position. i try to tell the tri folks i work with to not only use their hands as the source of pressure and motion for movement but also their forearms. use some closed fist/open finger drills to experience the difference.

It is all in the catch. Most triathletes are really careful about the entry, kind of sliding the hand forward as they roll. Really good swimmers aren't that careful about it, and develop a lot of downward force even as the hand moves forward. Need high elbows to do this properly, and it helps to have a strong kick.

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While swimming wwith a decent body roll and catch phase of your stroke that is close to your body on the pull, you will keep the motion more fluid and less sinking will occur. With good form it can be excecuted at many paces, even warm up.
-Dan

Caleb,

Fulla has a point. If you are a competitve swimmer, glide is not something you do much except in some drills. Recovery is fast and relaxed and your hands are delivered quickly to where they do the most good, pulling. Placing your hands in the water gently is much like checking your swing playing golf or baseball. You want a good front quadrant stroke, try speeding your recovery, not slowing down your stroke cycle. Look at this athlete above the water, and see if her recovery is relaxed and effortless. Probably is, and is faster too.

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I'm wondering if there's something that goes on with the shoulders as well to make the plane. I know when my stroke feels like the nice snap at the catch, it's a case of using the whole arm from fingertips to shoulder muscles to reach out on the beginning of the catch and then be in a position to get some power going at the start of the stroke.

when my freestyle was at its best the recovery always felt loose, fast and effortless. it always felt as if my arms were almost not there (same with butterfly).

apparently my body position is quite good. pity about my small hands and feet :(

I always figure I peaked at swimming because (relative to my size) I have small hands and short arms. If only I were 6'2" or taller.....

You are right about the recovery. A loose recovery doesn't always work in open water swims though (esp. ocean swims, lakes are generally fine.)

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"If you are a competitve swimmer, glide is not something you do much except in some drills."

I hadn't really thought about it being a stroke speed/rate versus efficiency/length thing.

I'm still convinced that she was faster than I was, but I'm not sure if she was more tired. (I think her workout was 6000yds, the second one of the day).

"Look at this athlete above the water, and see if her recovery is relaxed and effortless. Probably is, and is faster too."

I've noticed that some people really make an effort to keep their elbows high during the recovery, even doing fingertip-drag drills.

Why does it matter which path your arm takes during the recovery?

Keeping elbows high during recovery reduces extraneous movement, and is easier on the rotator cuff. elbow should be high at the finish of the stroke, and at the catch of the next, so why drop the elbow in between?

It doesn't really matter what happens above the water, as long as what happens under the water is good. It is just easier to set up good mechanics under the water by starting from doing good things above the water.

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High elbow on the recovery side can act as something of a pendelum that encourages you to rotate your body so you've got a nice long catch and stroke on the pulling side.

keeping your elbows high usually usually feels more effortless in terms of recovery. try doing fingertip drag and see how it affects how your arms feel on recovery. it usually feels pretty good.

Also, the alternative (wide recovery) can tend to make the swimmer fishtail.

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Isn't that more of a spinter thing... where the upper body is higher?

I know alot of swimmers that stay pretty high in the water. It looks like they have a large barrel under their chest and are floating on top of it. I tend to swim like this when I am doing speed work, but it produces a very flat (minimal body rotation) stroke. It feels fast as Sh!*, but does use a fair amount of energy. I think that you see alot of Swimmers use this and not Triathletes because of distances and strength. Swimming this way requires alot of upper body strength (think of a one handed pull lup and push up) that serious swimmers possess, and most triathletes don't. Combine this with very good technique under the water and you get a swimmer that looks like they are being towed across the pool.

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Caleb,

Fast swimmers rotate from their hips not their shoulders.

The extended arm creates a platform or axis of rotation. It prevents your shoulder from dropping. One side of your body rotates and then your rotate onto the other side of your body from hip to hip. Imagine the hinges on a door as instead of a line through the senter of your body. Each extended arm creates a new axis of rotation.

Dougstern

This is not TI swimming it is how fast swimmers swim!

DougStern

I get the same feeling as you describe.

I find that when I'm doing speedwork if I lift my head a little bit, the water seems to go under me instead of me going through it.

I start getting that feeling around 1:35 per 100

jaretj

I don't think so. From my obsessive studying of this sport, I routinely see that "downward force" is wasted force. The objective is to use all your energy to move you down the pool. So downward force would actually be a bad thing, as it would disturb balance as well.

If you meant that to mean "lift", which would essentially be free and similar to planing, then I'm with you.

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but it certainly appeared that her water was much more solid than mine was.

BINGO -- this is the one fundemental difference between really good swimmers and the rest. And, interestingly, it is the one thing I never see discussed when bad swimmers get together and try to figure out how to swim faster.

Of course, water is water and it is the same for everyone. But, good swimmers (and by good I mean folks who are reasonably serious competitive swimmers) are able to apply more force to the water over a longer part of the stroke. The effect is exactly the same as if they were swimming in more solid water than you.

A mediocre swimmer is like a runner trying to run on ice. Short strides and the foot slips. A good swimmer is running on the same ice but with spikes on their shoes. Longer strides and no slippage = much more power actually being converted to forward motion.

Make your hands stick to the water and make them stick for a longer part of the stroke. Increase the "stickyness" of your hands and period of the stroke where you can apply effective power and you'll go faster. Throw in some body positioning modifications to reduce drag and you'll go faster still. Get really really good at this and you'll be scary fast, even if you are a 90 pound 13 year old girl.

Every single thing you guys patter on and on about is (hopefully) aimed at making the hands "stick" better and stick longer but you all NEVER mention the end result you are after. Since few if any of you understand what you are actually striving for, you'll never master it.

Think about your hands on every stroke.

And exactly how do you generate lift in the absence of applying a downward force, may I ask???

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