I'm willing to play devil's advocate, if any of you would like to play along:

When Ironman started back in the 70s, 15 people started the race and the winner completed it in 11:46. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was a race few people were meant to finish. Fast forward to today, you have thousands of people racing, many of which can do the distance easily in under 12 hours, so based purely on the numbers, doesn't it look like completing an Ironman is not quite as challenging as it was once thought to be?

Now before you start flaming me, I made this comment for the sake of debate and give a lot of respect to people who train for and do Ironman.

Have at it...

sback

<< It's just a bunch of people running round in circles in stupid clothing.>>

LOL. One of the best lines I've read here yet. That should become your sig line, IMO.

This seems tied of the philosophy that if someone that doesn't look like they do 5,000 situps a day can finish the event in less than 17 hours it somehow detracts from the 8:30-12:00 crowd or from the event as a whole.

I love it when people say things like "anyone can do it if they put in the training" or "anyone can do it if they don't reduce the cutoff from 17 hours".

The reality of the situation is that not everyone can or does do it. How many people of the 400 million in the US/Canada finish an Ironman every year?

For such a "trivial" event in some people's opinion I find it interested that some 10-15% of registrants don't make it to the start line and another 10% don't make it to the finish line on race day.

Anything is academic in discussion. If I'd been bothered to spend 6 hours a day on skates when I was a kid (and had great genetics) I'd be just as good as Sidney Crosby. The essence of a conditional statement is completing the condition. People dismiss the commitment to living the training requirements for an Ironman day in and day out, even for us 13+ hour finishers.

Frankly, I'd prefer a society where most of us are capable of finishing an Ironman as opposed to one where most of us care what Paris Hilton is dressing her dog in, even if it reduces the "meaningful nature".

- Mike

sback: I will reply to you, and I understand you were merely playing devil's advocate.

I always hate to draw analogies because, inevitably, someone takes great exception. However, as I was mulling this over last night, I could not help but feel like I have been involved in this "type" of argument before. Then it hit me like a brick wall.

This reminds me of when I was a young PFC in the Army during the days of Desert Storm (1990). For those who do not know (and I am simplifying this), when you serve in combat, you receive a "combat patch," which is basically your unit patch placed on your right shoulder. This signifies that you served in combat. I remember during Desert Storm how many comments I heard about how "earning a combat patch doesn't mean that much anymore," or words to that effect. Interestingly enough, I recall most of those comments coming from active duty or former military members who never served in combat. I was too young and dumb to give it much thought at the time, but, I do remember being very surprised and confused about the comment. It certainly meant a lot to the men and women, who placed themselves in harm's way, and were separated from their families for long periods of time.

In 1990, very few people had combat patches -- mostly Nam vets. Today, especially with Iraq, many more people in the military have combat patches. That does not diminish the patch or the fact that they served in combat. The percentage of people who serve in the military, who have combat patches, is much higher now. However, the number of people with combat patches versus the general public is still a very small percentage.

Before you flame, I am NOT comparing going to war with doing an Ironman. I just find it interesting that during my time in the military, I witnessed individuals who tried to diminish the value of something that was only done by a select few merely because of the numbers were starting to increase and they did not find the war "hard enough" anymore. Now, in a triathlon forum, the same sort of thing is happening. The Ironman is being diminished because more people are accomplishing it, therefore, it is not "hard enough" anymore.

Again, please do not read this as drawing a correlation between serving in the military and doing an Ironman. Please do not read this as an opinion regarding the value of either. I simply find it very interesting that in two radically different arenas, the same (or similar) feelings seem to exist.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

How many people of the 400 million in the US/Canada finish an Ironman every year?

How many want to?

I think almost anyone can finish an IM if they wanted to but most don't particularly care. I think doing an IM is a personal thing and if others don't think it's a big deal, great. I'm sure there are things most people do that I don't think are that big of a deal, that's life.

The reality is that Ironman sounds harder than it is, something I found out when I did them.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Casey,

You are presenting two different arguments here.

First, with regards to "How many want to?", I am not sure we want to assign vailidity and meaning to things based on popularity. Can we not dismiss just about anything by finding a majority opinion to express disinterest? That's a pretty bleak outlook, especially considering that (at least from my perspective) there is no value judgement going the other way. I don't say to people: "I finished an Ironman and think it's an accomplishment - and therefore, as you have not, you are unaccomplished."

Your second argument, to me, is perfectly valid. You walked the walk (or in this case: swam, bike and ran the swim/bike/run) and didn't find it to be what others make it out to be. As it is a relevant experience that is perfectly valid. I didn't find an epiphany at the finish line either, but I felt the experience (including the two years of training) was rewarding and worth it. I take more issue with people dismissing it out of hand (as it seems was the case in the OP) without appreciating the work that goes into it.

- Mike

How can a sprint guy have an informed opinion about IM? He is only a bit more informed than a non triathlete..there's so much of a difference between the two races. Seeing that other doctors have commented to this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if your doctor reads Slowtwitch too. If you bring up the topic with him, he just might be prepared to discuss.

what it means to YOU is what matters...just tell you your doctor that, and just let whatever smartass comment he responds to you with slide right off your back

---

Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

"What it means to YOU is what matters."


Right on!!!

what it means to YOU is what matters...just tell you your doctor that, and just let whatever smartass comment he responds to you with slide right off your back

No kidding. Do people go to the doctor to get an ailment treated or to have their hobby validated? I'm not saying that the doctor can't learn some "bedside manner", but still.

I'm not understanding this "It's important me, it MUST be important to everyone else". It's a personal hobby for some (a sport/career to even fewer), unimportant to most everyone else.

Lunch over, back to work, have a nice afternoon everyone ... enjoy what you do and love, regardless of what others think about it.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Quote: "No kidding. Do people go to the doctor to get an ailment treated or to have their hobby validated? I'm not saying that the doctor can't learn some "bedside manner", but still.

I'm not understanding this "It's important me, it MUST be important to everyone else". It's a personal hobby for some (a sport/career to even fewer), unimportant to most everyone else."
_____________________________

I think you are missing the point. See my original reply (post #3 or 4 on this thread). It is not a matter of bedside manner or a matter of thinking that it is important to me, so it must be important to everyone else. The point is, this doc displayed a horrible lack of judgment. As I previously stated, doctors are professionals in the customer service arena. They provide a service to patients -- their customers. This guy: 1) doesn't understand his customer, 2) doesn't care about his customer, and/or 3) doesn't care what is important to his customer. He displayed an incredible lack of judgment here. Why would you ever return to a health care service provider who displayed such poor judgment?

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

"being a doctor doesn't mean that much anymore"

That's the winning zinger in my book...

My twin brother had a heart scare when we were 39 and it got me moving towards a healthier lifestyle(my cholesteral level was 311!)

===========================================================================

Well done to you, that must have taken some doing. I am impressed. Seems I was right on the money with my comment about overcoming serious health issues, wasn't I?

---

"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

 No doubt,I was well on my way to having serious health issues. All of my minor issues have gone away since taking up serious training again. Very low heart rate and blood pressure levels, alot less stress, and a body that looks and performs alot better at 45 then when I was 20.

With respect to a life-altering experience of doing an Ironman or any endurance event... I think that changing daily eating, sleeping, parenting, working routines etc. IS a life-altering experience when you throw in the training required to complete an Ironman.

what the hell is a "Master Sprint Specialist"

Sounds like he is a ninja witha pre-mature ejaculation issue??

---

http://www.clevetriclub.com

rob reddy

With respect to a life-altering experience of doing an Ironman or any endurance event... I think that changing daily eating, sleeping, parenting, working routines etc. IS a life-altering experience when you throw in the training required to complete an Ironman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you that following a rigorous training programme that is essential to competing in triathlons particularly Ironman are the life changing experiences. I don't agree that completing an Ironman is "a life changing accomplishment" as your original post suggested.

---

"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS

You should have asked what the doc meant by his statement. Why is everyone so quick to say that the doc is being unprofessional? He made a comment, and there is no context around the statement, so how do you know what the doc was really thinking.

Regardless, I don't understand why anyone really cares what others think. Did the doctor do a good job with your shoulder, yes or no? If yes, then he's a good doctor whether or not he thinks that ironman's (ironmen?) are a complete waste of time.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I'd agree that just "doing it" doesn't mean that much. Really trying to train for it right, though, is a real study in self-discipline.

You shouldn't be so quick to jump on the doc. Maybe he was just lamenting the state of Iroman as observed by some of the people here - i.e., that we fatties have ruined the sport.

"To me, Ironman has completely lost its appeal. Too many people out there doing a 1 1/2 hour float being dragged along by the current of the other swimmers, then riding at 13 mph for 9 hours, then walking a 6hr marathon. Wow, its really tough to become an ironman and to give up $500 to do so........totally not a race for 90% of the participants. "

"Just you though you've done everything, the moment they've warned you about has arrived. you checked in a hotel 3 days before the race and yet to discover you are on the same floor with average Joe! He is doing the same race, signed up a year ago same as you. trained 7 hours a week and still managed to preserve his beer gut. His goal? Turn this race to a nightmare for guys like you!"

"I don't want Joe Normal (fat is normal in the US) being able to shortcut the same bragging rights I've had to work for. "

I'm planning my first IM next year (WI), inspired by some of the unlikely specimens that have that have preceded me. I'm a recovering couch potato, shooting for splits of 1.5/9/6.5 to achieve a midnight finish. I'm going to ride a sissy triple, too. Sorry if that ruins it for your doc, but I'm at least as self-centered as he is (and swim fan and rug muncher too), so I don't care.

Real Ironmen still epotimize the endurance athlete. But the elderly, fat and physically challenged have also become part of the brand image. Did you see the advert that IMNA used during the 25 year anniversary? Included an old lady and the noob with deer-in-the-headlights expression. I borrowed my friend's 2005 IMLP DVD to watch for inspiration. It featured old people, a guy who couldn't swim, a post surgical heart patient, a morbidly obese guy, and lots of slow, homely fatties finishing waaaaay after dark.

Then there's crap like this - ex-fattie reporter Christine Webb doing TV specials about fatties completing Ironman:

http://www.13wham.com/...nter/?videoId=179948

So yeah, it doesn't mean much anymore to some people (not me, though, I can't wait to do it and flaunt my 17 hour finisher's medal). And even if IMNA does implement a 13 hour cutoff to exclude guys like me (doubt they will, though), the brand image will take at least a decade to recover.

See you in Wisconsin!

"Just you though you've done everything, the moment they've warned you about has arrived. you checked in a hotel 3 days before the race and yet to discover you are on the same floor with average Joe! He is doing the same race, signed up a year ago same as you. trained 7 hours a week and still managed to preserve his beer gut. His goal? Turn this race to a nightmare for guys like you!"

I know you didn't write this but it is funny.

---

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Whoa - what's this about the 'elderly'? I thought they had age groups for a reason - the difference between the "fatties" you lament and those with more years on them is that the latter condition is involuntary and beyond control of the aging athlete - please don't lump the two together.

Many of the guys in my AG (50 - 54) are pretty solid athletes, highly disciplined in training and formidable competitors who are fiercely committed to excellence in the sport. I find those in much older AG's inspiring - and hope I'll be competing when I'm in my seventies and eighties. That's the beauty of endurance sports - there's room for the individual to race peers, even while the elites [with their 20 - 30 y.o. God-bodies] push back records. Tough for an old fella like me to compete in ruggers or football.

As I previously stated, doctors are professionals in the customer service arena.

IMO, doctors rank very poorly in "customer service" (and I don't think it's a big secret). They thrive because they offer a service we HAVE TO HAVE (and they're incredibly busy and 'desensitized'). You can (hypothetically) take your business elsewhere, if there are not already overloaded doctors in your area that are taking new patients. In most areas, you're choices of doctors are limited.

There are some outstanding doctors out there, but they are not the norm (IMO) in terms of "customer service". I say that because when you finally find one that is very good in that department (and knowledgeable at treating ailments) you're so thankful and appreciative (especially when they are your kids' doctor).

Honestly, veterinarians seem to be more friendly and compassionate to their patients than MD's are. ;)

Why would you ever return to a health care service provider who displayed such poor judgment?

If they can fix my injury/ailment and have me in and out without spending half my day in the waiting room and/or having to come back 3 times because they didn't do it the first time ... then I don't really care what they think about my hobby. That's about as direct as I can state it.

I've had doctors tell me they can't/won't watch baseball b/c it's too boring right after we've discussed my playing college baseball. I didn't take it as a personal affront and it wasn't my highest priority. Getting my muscle tear fixed while missing the least amount of school/work was.

I agree that I'd love to have a doctor that [1] was top of the line in knowledge and skill, and [2] very interested in and supportive of my hobbies ... but in the end, #1 is all I'm really looking for.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

You should have asked what the doc meant by his statement. Why is everyone so quick to say that the doc is being unprofessional?

Because that's how these threads go. A poster presents ONE side of the story ... the version that paints the triathlete (or specific distance triathlete) as the victim, and then everyone jumps in and gangs up on the OTHER side and gives the OP the EXACT advice/sentiment they want to hear.

It works whether we are discussing doctors, relationships, families, sisters, moms, etc. It's very theraputeic and self-affirming. It's great. The poster feels validated and justified and we get to rally around our "it's us against the world" and "they'll never understand" slogans/mentalities.

Sure, I'm having some fun ... but I do agree that it would be refreshing if more people pointed out, "Why didn't you aske him what he meant?" rather than jump to "find a new doctor", "break up with her", "your sister is jealous of you", etc.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

What a fucking baby. Who gives a shit if your doctor likes your hobby. You asked him to cure your shoulder not be your boyfriend.

How's your shoulder?

Shoulder's fine thanks.

Not asking for any sympathy either...EVER, I picked my hobby and I'll bear the brunt of my injuries.

I was asking for thoughts on rebuttals.