good swim, great bike . . .and terrible run

Mike,

Congratulaions on the overall PB at IMFL. What you said above is a general trend that I have noticed in the sport over the last few years. I have said this numerous times here, but it's worth repeating once more - if you are serious about improving your place performance, if you have aspirations of a high place in your AG, if you want to qualify for some other races(IMH et al), improving ones running and getting faster, even if slightly, is the way to do this. However, you do it, generally speaking if you run faster you will do better. Running faster/better, even just a little bit will yield greater gains, than all the aero-gagetry that people put on their bikes.

How do to this? The great thing is that running is a very basic activity, as a number of people have already said on this thread, it's very often is as simple as just running more. Many don't run enough - either enough days a week or enough miles per week. The first thing to do is focus on frequency days-running/week. The second is consistancy. The third is volume.

The off season, particularly where you live, is the perfect time to do a focussed block of run training. The key is just commiting to get out the door and run 5 - 6 days week regardless of the time, Regardless of the distance. Regardless of the weather. Regardless of how you feel( serious injuries aside - speaking fatigue only here). Don't worry about pace. Don't worry about HR. Don't worry if it's hilly or flat. Just do it! If you can do it, and repeat it day after day, after day . . . then that's the right pace/intensity. In general if you follow this plan for 4 months, I can almost gaurantee you that you will be running faster at the end of this time and that it will carry over into faster running in triathlons next season.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Maybe you simply went too hard on the bike???

I got hit by a car while riding in June which put me out of commission for several months and have had to pretty much start from scratch on my running. To build back my base I have been running 5-6X per week. Most have been relatively short runs 20-45min at a slow pace. As others have said, frequency is the key. you just have to take it easy and not push the pace. A HR monitor is good for ensuring you are not going out of your aerobic zone. I have been slowly expanding the length of my long run and adding in hill repeats once a week, plus some tempo (eg., several repeats of 2 min tempo/1min EZ) after a bike trainer session. rest is key, so if my legs are getting thrashed i'll scale back for a week. After several months of this my run fitness is really coming along

"Don't worry about pace. Don't worry about HR. Don't worry if it's hilly or flat. Just do it! If you can do it, and repeat it day after day, after day . . . then that's the right pace/intensity. In general if you follow this plan for 4 months, I can almost gaurantee you that you will be running faster at the end of this time and that it will carry over into faster running in triathlons next season."

That's pretty much what I'm doing. My plan starting in September was to build up to 50 miles per week. Nothing fast. In October I ran 215 miles, so far this month I'm maintaining. The only type of speedwork has been a four race XC series and a couple 5Ks. I ran the series about 9 minutes faster this year than last year even though each race was slightly longer this year. Today I ran my fastest 5K in more than 3 years. I'm still slower than I was a few years ago, but considering I do no speedwork other than these races I'm encouraged by the results so far. I plan to continue with the weekly mileage in the 50-60 mile range for the next several months and I'm looking forward to having a decent year for running next year. As next summer approaches I plan to work in more regular speed, but for now I'm just going with the long slow running.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

11 and 7 last week and 11 and 7:30 this week. I'm feeling pretty good and looking to log some good miles in December when we have only one exercise force on deck, instead of two or three, and get 10 days off at Christmas. I really like next years races with the Desert Du, OC du, Devil Dog, Nationals and then another month to long course Nationals in Auburn. Lots of run races without too much travel.
I would love to have a training partner. I have not met anyone since Doug who wanted to grind out the volume I do at a nice reasonable pace.
Chad

Where in SoCal are you that it's like that?

Twentynine Palms. It generally is not too cold, but there are no trees and thus no cover from the wind. It always blows here.

Come to Boulder... we'll run when it's -5 out. Doesn't happen often but you still gotta go do it on the coldest day of the year just to say you did it! :)

No thanks. I grew up at 5,200 feet and ran in college at Utah State. I did a 90 min run once when the temp was 5 degrees. It was very pleasant until I headed back and realized I had a tailwind. My eyelashes were freezing shut when I blinked.

I'll take the weather here anytime; its miserably hot during the summer, but when you race at 85 degrees it feels pleasant when others think it is hot.

Chad

"Mindless mile after mile will make you good at just that. "

News flash: This is exactly what you need to be good at for Ironman. Guys who can run mindless mile after mile at 8 min pace are in the top 5% of the field...sometimes even less....run mindless 9 min miles and you break 4 hours, at 10 min miles its 4:20...still in the top 20% of the field.

I'm guessing that Mike just needs to be able to run mindless mile after mile at 8-10 min mile pace WITHOUT WALKING....this is what 80% of the field in an Ironman North America race CANNOT do.

Like Fleck said, there is no magic, especially when it comes to Ironman runnning. Just run every mile in training at your Ironman race pace and do it often....5-7 days per week...the bottom line is that your Ironman race pace needs to feel relatively easy every day you go out....guys like Macca and Alexander are exceptions to some extent, but I bet you that 2:40 to 2:50 pace is pretty easy for those guys too.

News flash: This is exactly what you need to be good at for Ironman.

Frankly, Dev, that is mostly what I do in training and I don't even do Ironman. Running fast after riding a bike fast requires you to be very strong, not particularly fast.
Two examples:
Camp Pendleton Sprint tri: I ran 17:45 for more or less 5K. Let's say it was accurate and I ran about 5:40 miles. That is not particularly fast, but it got me to the number three run split after missing the number one bike split by 8 seconds.
Soma Quarterman: I ran 39:48 for 6.55 miles or so (it seemed a little long). That is about six minute miles for a little longer than 10K (and it was about 85 degrees). Again, not going to win any prizes at the local 10K, but coming off the bike that ended up the number one run split (a first for me).
Most of the year I just run a lot of miles and I have average 6 hours a week for the last three years (that's about 48 miles a week were I to run it on the road). That makes you fast, plus a similar attempt to maintain bike volume.

Chad

so, with that thought process, you would advocate lifting weights every day as well? What you're neglecting is that you improve when you take the time off and recover, not when you further tear down and destruct your muscles. ST has this mindset, and seem to think the macho, run, swim, bike every day is the way to go. No one looks at your workout log. Strategic, well placed speed, long and tempo workouts are how one gets good, not the mile after mile, "garbage" miles. That and a nice, periodized schedule is how the best get to the top, not wasted crap miles. Newsflash for you.....look at how the good ones do it. As I said, what you practice is what you get. Practice getting rundown, and that's what you'll get, and immune system breakdowns as well.

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Gary Geiger
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Newsflash for you: Mike actually needs a solid run base first before he can start doing the finer stuff. Look what I told him to do Run six times a week with three 60 minute runs and three 30 minute runs and a day off. There is plenty of room to recover in there without breaking down. Seriously, most people do not have the base to run long nor hard. The only reason they can do what they do, is modern running shoes, and many jump the gun and start going way too fast and long too early...it works for a while and then they get injured and actually end up being slower. If they actually had to run barefoot, they'd find out in a hurry that their bodies are not ready for the long and fast stuff that they are pounding out.

There is a time for Mike to do what you are suggesting, but not yet. And no way your immune system should break down on 30-60 minutes of running a day. with a day off That's just silly talk. If you sleep properly and eat properly, this miniscule amount of exercise is no different from a regular fitness enthusiast's routine.

The garbage miles for most runners are not the short slow miles. The garbage miles for most runners who are no adequately prepared are when they go too long or too hard. They are writing checks that their bodies can't cash and when the bank balance goes empty the checks bounce and the body breaks. The shorter slow miles builds the bank balance. The best just have a huge bank balance when they go hard or long.

I hate it when you guys use the approach of what the best use to get to the top. This is the problem with most triathlon programs. These guys have been active athletes since being kids. People take elite programs, water them down and give them to age groupers. But they water them down backwards...they take out the years of low intensity volume and frequency base building and jump right intervals, hills etc. What should be happening is the inverse. Do all the "filler stuff" that the top guys do for years and cut out their hard stuff. Then you are laying the correct foundation for long term success.

Most sedentary adults getting into the sport after a long hiatus from activity (last time in high school or college) need many years of training within their fitness capabilities...over time that envelope grows. But watching 80% of people who have to walk some part of an Ironman or marathon course, it is clear their fitness envelope is not there...yet.

Dev

As a newbie and non runner I can offer my scenario for you to look at, for what it's worth.
Former swimmer (1983-1990), then started road racing bikes for a few years in the early 90's. Hated running all my life.

Turned 21, found beer, got married, got fat. Didn't do squat for 15 years. Entered a sprint triathlon in spring of 2006 and was hooked. Several races in 2006 including a HIM and then several more in 2007 concluding with IMWI. Always had decent/solid swims and then good bikes, even though I was biking conservative as I was always scared of the run. Then I would get passed by all manner of people in the run.

Decided to focus more on running this winter and signed up for a spring marathon. Started re-training after IMoo at the start of October and have gradually worked my way up from 20 miles/week at the start and am currently up to 33 last week and will do 35 this week. Normal week is 5 runs.

Monday off.
Tuesday swim and bike.
Wed run 7 miles (starting this week it will be 9), core work/stretching.
Thurs swim, run 5 miles.
Fri run 5 miles, core work/stretching.
Sat bike 3-4 hrs, run 3 miles.
Sun long run (started at about 10, will be 14 this weekend and will be up to 18 by end of december).

I'm doing 3 weeks on, 1 week recovery.

In just this short time of run focusing I've already seen improvements. My long run yesterday was 12.5 miles including hills and trails and in the snow and I came in at sub 8 minute miles. Not fast, but fast for me. Plus my HR was low zone 2 for the avg. So I am running better at easier HR than I was all last summer when my peak was 35 miles of running during IM training.

Most of my runs have been at an easy 'conversational' pace. If I'm feeling good I may push one of the 5 mile runs a little and do some more zone 3 work, but I've been very careful to make sure that I don't do hard enough to be sore for the next day's run.

It hasn't been glamorous, and has at times been boring and feels like I'm slowly plodding along. But each week the runs get a little faster, the HR stays the same or gets a little lower and I'm less sore after each run than in the past. Just follow the more is more, but don't go too hard advice that a lot of people have given and you too should see results.

Oh, and every pound you can lose seems to help. 1 month after IMoo I had gone from 165 to 171 and now after two solid months of steadily increasing mileage I am back down around 167. If I can get to 155+/- by next spring I should no longer be such a lousy runner!

Good luck.

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Thanks everyone for the input. All very valuable and every word will be taken into account. I was hoping that Dev and Fleck would pine in but wanted to hear more from others and got what I asked for. The plan is frequency and consistency.

Speaking with a friend who is what I would consider a good "big man" runner - he basically told me to get as comfortable running as I am with swimming. In line with Dev's advice of being able to run a mindless pace for 'x' distance. When I get to running a distance at a certain pace with no issues, try going a bit faster and keep doing this with the main goal of being comfortable at my chosen pace. This is just like my swims. I swim in practice at my chosen IM swim pace and just get to the point that swimming a 1:40/100m is comfortable and is not pushing myself at all - just the mindless pace I swim at no matter what the distance.

I'm giving myself lots of time to get back to IM distance racing, so with this advice, I think I should do well.

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Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

Dev, great comments as usual,,,,,,,,,,,with the six runs a week as you outlined, how would you put your lifting in twice a week if one was so inclined?

tfun~

[When it is 40 degrees and the wind is blowing in January it will be much less fun]
Then just think about me or anybody who lives North when running by 20 degrees will actually be a pleasant run @ that time of the year and in February and maybe in March!!!!

FRed.

Tfun...don't you know that lifting is banned at ST? :-)

Seriously though, if you are going to lift, you can go 3x per week and do it right after the 60 min run days, that way you have a "hard" day that is the longer run and lifting and the easy day which would be the 30 min run which is just to get the blood flowing and enhance recovery while maintaining consistency on the run front.

My view is that the 30 minute "filler" run is the highest value run in that it is the key element to actually being consistent, which is the biggest problem that 95% of age grouper have. There is no excuse for not doing it because if you can't find 40 minute in your day be it early morning, lunch or late nite, then you are simply disorganized. No one can really claim that they "want to train" but then say that they could not find the time to do the 30 minute filler run. No matter how tired you feel, after 10 minutes, you WILL have the legs to do that 30 minute run...and it is 30 minutes for a reason...on days when you are mentally tired from a long day in the office, getting over that first 10 minutes just to get the blood flowing is important...you can suffle at 12 minute miles for the first 10 minute "warmup", but magically, everyone finds their legs after that and somehow ends up running at their "mindless pace" for the next 20....so really, it is a 20 minute run with a 10 minute warmup....but if you do three of those a week, you end up with 90 extra minutes on your feet.

Dev

PS. To add to this, on Dec 1, I'm starting a "100 Run" challenge. The goal will be freqeuncy and getting to 100 runs of at least 30 minutes in duration (can be longer...but the key is frequency), to get us through the winter and set everyone up for a solid run/tri season.

Then just think about me or anybody who lives North when running by 20 degrees will actually be a pleasant run @ that time of the year and in February and maybe in March!!!!
I said that somewhat tongue in cheek because until three years ago I never lived anywhere with "pleasant" daytime winter temps like here in Twentynine Palms. I can't imagine how anyone limited to trainer riding or treadmill running is able to manage any sort of decent base during the winter. Of course, I also get to run morning temps of 85 and ride at 110 during the summer, so it all equals out in the end.
Chad

Strategic, well placed speed, long and tempo workouts are how one gets good, not the mile after mile, "garbage" miles.

Yes, that's right, for people that have been at it for 5+ years or who have come from a strong running back-ground. However, for the vast majority of people on this board and in the sport of triathlon, they don't have that - so a back-to-basics approach that builds the base and foundation of solid run fitness is always going to be helpful.

look at how the good ones do it.

Not sure how good you are talking about, but if it's the level I think you are thinking, again, it's people that have been at the sport a LONG time 5 - 10+ years. There are some take-aways from what the very best do, but for many people who have been in the sport 4 years or less, it's no way to train.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Great post thx, yeah i am aware of the taboo lifting just call me a crazy canuck who uses it to get by in the winter i am not co-ordinated enough to ski.

Do tell of this 100 Run challenge?

tfun~

"The first thing to do is focus on frequency days-running/week. The second is consistancy. The third is volume. "[/reply]
Fleck pretty much sums things up in a nutshell. I'm in a similar boat having just taken so time off. I'm going to ramp up my running slowly, focusing on frequency for the next month:

Week 1: 6-7 runs of 30min each, Easy pace, stretching
Week 2: 6-7 runs of 30-40min each, Easy pace, some pickups
Week 3: 5-6 runs 45-50min each, Easy pace, one run 1 hour
Week 4: 4-5 runs 1 hour each, Easy pace, 1 run 1.5 hour

In month two I will continue to progess each week, eventually getting to the point where the two hour run seems "normal". Once I get to that point I'll hit the hills a little more frequently in preparation for threshold work which. Maybe at the end of month 3 I will be working on structured LT workouts (interval or tempo runs). Either way volume will continue to go up as my weekly long run approaches 2.5 to 2.75 hours.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

I'll formulate all the details soon and post...basically it will start on Dec 1....100 runs of at least 30 min in duration in 100 days gets you platinum club....100 runs in 110 days and you got gold club...120 days for silver club, 130 days for Bronze club...all the rules will be posted, and I'll try and set up some type of an online spreasheet...you don't get credit for going hard or long...just heading out for at least 30 minutes...you can also double up on runs in a day and take days off.

OK, that's it for now. I think we need to get some sponsors to throw in prizes etc :-)

Dev