There's no conspiracy here. A few things add up to make light duty diesels not the most practical.

New diesel emissions regulations are really challenging to meet, suppliers are struggling to supply all the "stuff" necessary to meet the regulations. There has been a huge run-up in sales of heavy duty trucks because commercial and fleet owners want to buy trucks before the new emissions requirements (and all the hardware needed to meet them) go into effect. One of the key requirements is low sulfur diesel fuel, which is only slowly becoming available. For example, VW isn't going to sell the diesel Jetta for 2008 model year because they aren't ready to produce cars that meet the new regulations.

Diesels are expensive, much more so than gas engines. I haven't looked at the prices in a while, but for a diesel engine in a 2500 or 3500 Dodge Ram, the option is around $5K. In addition to the cost of the engine, there's a second battery, intercooler, turbo, bigger exhaust, air pre-heater for cold starts, etc. that all contribute to the $5K cost (and about a 1000 lb weight increase over a gas engine truck).

A lot of 1/2 ton truck customers aren't "real" truck drivers, they use their pickup as a car with a big trunk. They aren't as interested in a diesel engine, and aren't willing to put up with some of the minor hassles that go along with it (waiting 30 seconds to start in cold weather, finding a station that sells diesel fuel, longer wait for heater to warm up in the winter, louder idle noise, etc.) There just isn't as much demand for a light duty pickup with a diesel as there is for a 3/4 or 1 ton.

And keep in mind that better mileage in a diesel doesn't always save you money, most places diesel fuel is more expensive than gas. It's sort of like the hybrid situation, the increase in fuel mileage will take a LONG time to pay back the increased initial cost of the vehicle.

Of course, there is the added benefit of simply using less fuel, exhausting less CO2, but most customers don't really consider these "intangible" benefits when they make a purchase decision, so it doesn't really generate any more demand for diesel 1/2 tons.

I didn't realize that the emission standards for diesels were tougher or will be tougher here than elsewhere, like in europe. Every time i'm there i end up with a diesel and it's great. It seems like all of their commercial vehicles are diesels. It seems like the Volvo, Iveco, Mercedes, Ford and others have a wide range of diesel engines for europe that do or would be able to meet the standards in the US.

After all don't we let Mexico's Diesel 18 wheelers in the country with no emission standards. Maybe that's another topic.

It seems that there is enough market out there to drive the light diesel to the market based on mileage alone. I thought i saw ads that touted only 100lb greater weight not mas much more money etc. I hope that the us automakers can beat the imports to the market for the sake of the UAW employees. Their future is already looking bleak. I would rather buy the Chevy or Ford than the Toyota, if it is a comparable product. If they make a piece of junk, i'll take the Toyota or Honda when they make one.

Do you work for one of the automakers. I need some inside scoop.

---

......

Yeah, I work for one of the big 3. Not in powertrain, so I don't have the really inside scoop, but I keep up with what's going on. Obviously I can't tell you everything we're working on.

You're right about Europe, there are a lot of sweet diesels over there. We build some of the same cars over there, but with European diesels in them. They have damn near the same performance as our US spec gas engined vehicles. We have a 6 speed turbodiesel VW Golf (European spec) in our competitive fleet that has one of the best powertrains I have ever driven. The big difference is that Europe has had low sulfer diesel fuel for a long time. Their "everyday" diesel fuel is called "Ultra Low Sulfur" in the US. Having low sulfur is a key to emissions controls. Getting rid of the sulfur not only eliminates a lot of sulfur compounds in the exhaust, it allows better exhaust after treatment technology for cleaner emissions.

I don't find all the emissions standards that interesting, so I don't pay real close attention, but once the new US diesel regulations take effect, I believe our standards will be the tightest in the world.

I think we DON'T allow Mexican diesel trucks into the US for emissions and other safety reasons. Even after low sulfur diesel is available in the US and the new emissions regulations take effect, we are going to keep building diesel trucks to the old spec for the Mexican market, since they won't have low sulfur diesel. I'm not sure if there is even a schedule for phasing in low sulfur fuel in Mexico.

Again, the diesel mileage isn't a panacea, LD trucks will get better mileage with a diesel, but some of it will be offset by increased fuel cost. Figure on low sulfur diesel being more expensive than the current stuff, too. Almost every year we do a business case study on putting a diesel in our 1/2 ton trucks, and in never works out, but it does get a little better each year. Look at some of the Euro market vehicles being brought back into the US with diesel engines--the Jeep Liberty, and I think the Jeep Grand Cherokee starting next year. The Liberty diesel sells OK, but not fantastic.

One of the problems is US diesel has a lot of sulfer in it, which makes it hard to pass emissions. We are supposed to switch to lower sulfer diesel soon, so hopefully this will increase availability of diesel vehicles. Some of the European cars get incredible milage but aren't available due to the lousy fuel.

And Don't forgot Europe has a large Displacement Tax. Thats why turbo's are so big over there, you can enhance the performance with out increasing the displacement.

I believe Diesels get more HP for less displacement. So in effect the government is subsidizing Diesels.

---

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Actually, diesels typically have less horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same displacement. They have far more torque, however. Since horsepower = torque x RPM, the diesel is at a horsepower disadvantage due to it's much lower operating speed (RPM). A typical passenger car / light truck gasoline engine will have a max speed of 5000+ RPM (some as high as 8000). Diesel engines used in thes applications redline around 3000 RPM.

The torque / horspower differences between diesel & gas engines is another reason that they aren't being adopted so rapidly; you can't just drop a diesel engine into a vehicle in place of a gas engine. Drivetrain parts (clutches, torque converters, transmissions, driveshafts, half shafts, axles, etc.) need to be able to handle more torque, transmission and axle ratios need to change to maintain similar performance. Diesel engines don't produce any significant vacumn, so power brake systems have to be switched over to hydraulically boosted, which in turn may require a different power steering pump to provide the hydraulic power. The accessory drive (power steering pump, A/C compressor, alternator, etc.) needs to be changed due to different engine operating speeds. Pretty much the whole cooling system is different, and obviously the exhaust system is completely different for a diesel.

One other reason might just be you can smoke the tires off of a hemi Dodge truck and then go drive a diesel Cummins and you feel like you are driving a bus off the line at the stop light.

The general public in the states do not look highly upon diesel performance. Sure our 2004.5 Dodge Cummins will pull our 5th wheel trailer like it is a row boat but it just is not as nice to drive as a gasser truck which was a hemi before the Diesel.

Our truck I think is 325 hp and 600ft lbs git er done torque. I average on short trips around 16mpg with a 7K lb truck.

I'd really enjoy the extra mileage from the light diesel with the great performance. I get 18-19 in my 4.8l gas engine and need the truck bed. I'm the customer they want. I'll pay abit extra for the engine upgrade. It seems like the parts are available. I hope someone makes a good light diesel before i give up and get a corolla or civic for every day use.

My bet is that Toyota or Honda will beat the domestic brands to market and overtake the US automakers in the truck game. Any takers?

---

......

I bet one of the guys over a the TDR site can fix you up so that you can quite easily smoke your tires with that Cummins ;-D

I have now been the primary driver of Ford F-350 diesel pick-ups (93 non-turbo and currently 02 turbo 7.3l Powerstroke) for the last 10 years (and a VW Beetle TDI for the last year and a half). I much prefer the way that a diesel handles interstate driving.

Didn't somebody run a diesel at LeMans last weekend??? How'd they do???

---

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

The Audi R10 TDI won the Overall and LM P1 categories. The rules favored the Audis, to encourage Audi to build the car. Their next closest competitor was the French Pescalaro team, that finished 4 laps back. The Audis were faster, and got better mileage, after they got a decent lead, they cruised, otherwise they could have won by a larger margin.

BTW, Corvette Racing won the LM GT1 category for the 5th time in 6 years. They trailed the Aston Martin until the 21st hour when the Aston lost a clutch.

The Audi's diesel engines weren't exactly your typical diesel, but then again all the LMP1 cars use engines designed & build specifically for racing. From what I understand the diesel fuel they used was also pretty far removed from what you can buy at your local station.

Cummins also raced diesel powered cars at Indianapolis several times way back when (1930s--1950s). They had some success, but never won as I recall.

Yeah, the 12 cylinder turbo diesel in the R10's isn't coming to showroom nearby any time soon, but it was a neat engineering exercise. From what I understand it was very quiet and very clean running. I think it got about 6 mpg for the race. ;-)

Of course, you can get something very close to the 7 liter (427 ci) small block Chevy engine in the C6.Rs.

Would that have been the same V10 that was in the VW Toureg?

They did???!!! I'm sorry; I didn't know that. I only remembered it was a silver car.

I totally didn't mean to sound like a wise-ass.

No, it's a purpose built twin turbo V12 racing engine.

No problem, not too many people follow sports car racing and Le Mans.

It was an impressive showing for a new car. They also won Sebring earlier this year. Peugout is also coming out with a diesel Le Mans Prototype next year.

I saw that the Big 3 in the US make more $$ in the light truck market through volume and therefore put out the gas engines. True, the diesel will add about $5 K to the bill. I will soon trade up on my Silverado 1500 for a 2500 Diesel. Reliability, longevity, and performance are my reasons.



I also read that the Big 3 in Japan are looking to put diesels into their trucks, which will turn the market upside down and probably lead to diesels in the 1500s from the US makers as well as into the compact PUs.



LD

I also read that the Big 3 in Japan are looking to put diesels into their trucks, which will turn the market upside down and probably lead to diesels in the 1500s from the US makers as well as into the compact PUs.


We are on the same page!

So who will bring it to the us first? I think Toyota in 2009. The US automakers will miss it by 5 years. It reminds me when Toyota 4 runner sales were huge for 5 years before the US got on the SUV bandwagon.

---

......