I'm not really sure that Tibbs and vitus aren't saying essentially the same thing.

A lot of the distasteful asepcts of Islam (killing non-believers, subjegation of women, stifling personal freedoms, etc.) were found in the Christian Church during the Middle Ages. Does that mean that Christianity is an inherently evil religion? No, of course not. There may some problems, but we don't see Inquisitions these days.So what's the difference? I'm not much of a historian or sociologist, but I think with the Renaissance, Enlightenment, industrialization, etc... you had a changed economic sitaution and a lot more intellectual development. The idea that the Church should control the State became repugnant to many and you see a lot more (though not enough!) tolerance for diversity.

That really hasn't happened to much of the Middle East (though more so in some of the Asian Muslim countries). So what you have in the "Arab street" is a lot of poverty, little if any education, and not much hope for improvment. The nationalistic movements of the 50's and 60's failed to bring back a period of Arab power, so more and more people are turning to religion. Why?... because of a desire to return to the "good old days" of Arab/Muslim dominance, because religious leaders are the only ones with any legitimacy, because there's nothing else whici offers hope, or perhaps other reasons. And many (not all) religious leaders use this influence to incite hatred against 1) Israel 2 the USA 3) other Western nations. So if the problem with Islam or is Islam being used as a tool? I say there's nothing inherently bad with Islam, but the way it's being practiced in the Middle East is often bad.

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Ack. I must not be explaining my postion clearly enough; Tibbs and I are saying very different things. And my feeling is that most Americans view the problem through pretty much the same lens as Tibbs does, which is a fundamental flaw in our outlook.

Food for thought. . .Why do equate material abundance with "a lot more intellectual development"? Granted, we are really good at the machanical/technological stuff. Is that the yardstick? I think it speaks to a tremendous arrogance on our part. We ( the modern West ) love to congratulate ourselves on how advanced we are- I would bet that the vast majority of Americans believe absolutely that American society represents the pinnacle of human societal development. Every other generation of society was backward, unenlightened, repressive, and ignorant, until we got here.

So, OK, we're rich and powerful. We can put a man on the moon. All very impressive. Certainly we have achieved a technlogical prowess beyond the imagination of past societies.

How many Americans are on anti-depressents? How many American children are on mood-altering drugs? What's the divorce rate here? How many children grow up in a home with two parents? The list goes on; the question is, are these really indications of a healthy, advanced society? Is it possible that some of the developments in the West over the past few centuries are not advancements, but degradations? Certainly the Islamists think so.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You all make good points, but if someone is coming at me with a gun I think I'll shoot first and debate his motivation later. I don't care if terrorists are motivated by religion, envy, voices in their head or little green men. Their actions are evil and must be stopped - by any means necessary. Once they are destroyed we can set about righting whatever we ultimately decide is wrong, but if we get the order wrong the entire civilized world will continue to suffer from their actions.

Shoot first and ask questions later! I like it.

Think it will work in the long run?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I don't think the average American cares whether the terrorist is a nut using jihad as an excuse or is a devout but misguided Muslim. The average American just wants them dead.

Personally I agee with you, these guys really do believe in what they're doing. But my point was given another socio-economic-political-inellectual envrironment, they may express their devotion to Islam in a more positive way.

"Food for thought. . .Why do equate material abundance with "a lot more intellectual development"?

Like I said, it's not really my area of expertise. I do know that Western societies have a lot more of both. There are lots of theories on why the West advanced out of the Dark Ages into a dominant force while Islam did not - I don't claim to know the answer.

"How many Americans are on anti-depressents? How many American children are on mood-altering drugs? What's the divorce rate here? How many children grow up in a home with two parents? The list goes on; the question is, are these really indications of a healthy, advanced society? Is it possible that some of the developments in the West over the past few centuries are not advancements, but degradations? Certainly the Islamists think so."

The Islamists may think so, but I think they're full of shit. And I don't think that makes me a jingoistic arrogant apologist. I think just about every Palestinian kid would be on anti-depressants or in therapy if they lived in an western-type society. Yes, there's a lot of talk about the degradation of the American family but how many Muslim women are in abusive marriages that they can't get out of. I'm not saying the west or the US is perfect, or that we don't have our own problems, but life here is a hell of a lot better than in any Arab country.

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That's funny.. BillT slipped in while I was writing.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Back to Spain for a second:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542904/

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When I was talking about how much each region has I was pointing out what that does to you mentaly. If you have a lot you are less likely to go around and destroy others. The middle east has nothing much and as a result there is a lot of unhappiness.

Ok the dudes with the bombs are nuts. They think they are doing the will of God and all that crap. But the guys who organize them the real brains behind the operation is it pure jihaud from them? I don't think so. I think the guys at the top have more in mind then just doing god's work. If it was just pure religouis nuttytude then you would be seeing millions of tiny acts all over the place. Instead you see well thought out campgain. There is more for OBL to gain then just making God happy. This whole thing can make the leadrs very rich. Are they insane? Yes. Are they followers of a violent religoin? Yes. Is there something in it for them? Yes. Power is a huge motivator. Religoin is the key to getting it.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Well, Tibbs, I'm fairly confident in asserting that bin Laden isn't in it for the money.

On your point about "millions" of other terrorist acts around the world, check this out. . .scroll down to "The New al Quaeda Virus." It isn't good news.

www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FC17Aa04.html

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."