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What are your thoughts on AirBNB?
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jpo's Italy thread brought this to mind. There were comments made in that thread about popular tourist cities being hollowed out of local residents as wealthy investors buy up residential property to use as STRs.

This is a bit of a hot button topic locally. Our province recently banned STR's in most jurisdictions. Well, not an outright ban, but they banned it for non-principal resident use, and introduced a laundry list of rules and regulations that make it essentially financially unfeasible to use platforms like Airbnb, VRBO etc. The penalties are steep, and the province has recently posted a job for an illegal short term rental officer who will scour the internet

On one hand, it seems like no regulation of these platforms leads to the above consequence of locals being priced out of their areas in popular destinations. What we saw locally was that property value spiked due to the increased profitability in STR as opposed to LTR. If a 1 bedroom condo could rent for $2000/mth in the long term market, with all the risks associated with having long term tenants and their protections, that condo would only be worth so much. But, if you could bring in $3500/mth on that same condo with STR, and not have to deal with legal tenancies, all of a sudden that condo has a lot more value, and investors are willing to pay more for the unit. There are large buildings in Vancouver that have maybe a hand full of actual residents, while the rest of the units are all investor held as AirBNBs. This is obviously a problem, especially considering many of the condos were once the stepping stone in to full house ownership. Now they are priced out and that first step of financial security is gone for young people.

On the other hand... I feel like if I want to rent out my house for a month while our family is out of town I should be allowed to without having to apply for a business license and go through the tedious processes laid out by our local governments. I also feel bad for people who bought condos in buildings specifically built and zoned for STR, who are now holding assets that are worth a fraction of what they paid, as most of these units are too small to be desirable for long term living. They aren't moving on the real estate market, and not many people are interested in renting them long term. I feel like the approach our government took was too heavy handed.

Personally, I love using AirBNB when I travel. I feel like hotels are often not in an area I want to stay in, I don't want to pay for a shitty pool, a conference centre I'll never use and a mediocre restaurant on the main floor, and so on. I find I can get a lot more value out of staying in an AirBNB.

So, I'm kind of torn on the issue. I understand the need to make sure AirBNB's and VRBO's don't completely hollow out tourist areas and contribute to driving housing prices skyward, but I also appreciate the flexibility they provide when travelling for work or pleasure. I'm curious to hear from other's here who also live in tourist areas about how STR's are impacting your city, economy, and how you feel about regulating their use in general.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I think, but not sure, that the main pain points on this is large corporate entities (a lot of these are offshore) that are abusing and causing markets to spiral up, buying up large inventories of houses. This I am in favor of stopping and blocking.

Maybe there is a middle ground where regulations prevent large corporate buy ups of real estate for STR, but still allow for a person to rent their own plus 1 or 2 more max for STR (AirBnB). This I would fully support and think we need to allow.

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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I rely on it heavily when I'm working a storm. In most cities, I can find a place close to my claims so I don't have to spend my time driving from a hotel on the other side of town. I've got over 100 reviews and have only had a couple of negative experiences. It is usually cheaper, roomier, and definitely quieter than a hotel. I look for places with kitchens and washer/dryers so that I can keep stuff for big healthy salads and do my laundry without having to run somewhere.

Last year when I was in Clovis NM I stayed in the same place for 6 1/2 of the 7 weeks that I was there. It was a 15x20 space that had been converted from a small workshop. It had kitchen, full bath and washer/dryer. I had 13 claims on the same street that I was staying on, and probably 60 percent of my claims were within 5 minutes. It was fantastic.

I definitely understand the problems associated with short-term rentals and sympathize with people living in areas where those are problems. I've read the stories of the constant parties and disrespectful behavior that is common in some areas.

We've got a 1400 square foot unfinished bonus room upstairs that would be great for an apartment or Airbnb. But I don't want to hassle of having to deal with it.

I stayed at a place in Denver near the airport in 2016. The lady rented out three rooms in her house and she was almost always booked up. Based on what I paid, she was probably making $50k a year from those three rooms. Not a bad side gig to pay the house off.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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If you ask me...

The opportunity to temporarily swap house's, travel the world, live in new places - is awesome!!
And is a valuable service that airbnb can facilitate.

I think the problem with STR's driving out long term residents- has more to do with speculative investors.
Than people using Airbnb sensibly.

Some of these speculators are buying real estate to leave it empty.
Some are trying to become leveraged Airbnb/VRBO tycoons.

I suppose all is fair in love and war..

Assuming you don't lie on loan documents or break covenants and laws.

But no doubt there is ton of that sh#t going on..

And it could cause another crisis...
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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As many here know, I'm a renovation contractor. Many of my clients move in to an Airbnb or VRBO for a few months while we work on their house. I would not want to live in a hotel, with my family, for months.

Now that renting for that period of time is essentially illegal here it will be interesting to see how this effects my business.

I briefly hosted Airbnb guests. Because I live close to a hospital, we had lots of people staying who were here for lengthy treatments, or travel nurses, Doctors etc. there are no hotels anywhere near our hospitals.

There are so many really good use cases for Airbnb. But the negative effects are also very real. I wonder if there are any jurisdictions out there who have come to sensibly regulate them without being too heavy handed.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
There are so many really good use cases for Airbnb. But the negative effects are also very real. I wonder if there are any jurisdictions out there who have come to sensibly regulate them without being too heavy handed.

My feelings exactly.

I'm very glad to like in a neighborhood that has limited the number of tags and illegal AirBNBs are reported and shut down (or by karma, knocked down by a tornado after going to court and straight out lying). In some neighborhoods here, they've ruined what are nice areas for the people who live there full time. Long term is fine. Weekend drunken party houses - hell no.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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A quick mildly unfair quick fix could be that the owners must occupy the structure at least 75% of the time or something like that. Basically only allocating 25% max of the local market to rentals. This would also avoid the corporate vs private problem. Blanket rule.........if it's housing it's housing and you have to be housed in it at least X% of the time. If you aren't, clearly it isn't housing. And cities zone for housing/residential and other areas.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
The opportunity to temporarily swap house's, travel the world, live in new places - is awesome!!
And is a valuable service that airbnb can facilitate

There's a company (Kindred) going after the swapping option directly (via credits so you don't need to do the swap at the same time). I'm sure it's in part because a lot of places have banned STR and it's a bit of an end run around the those rules (since no $ is exchanged for the rental, only the cleaning and service fee).

I have no idea if the economics will make sense for the company, but the model itself seems more community friendly since hosts earn credits they themselves have to use so there's not a great incentive to have a huge pool of houses up on Kindred to generate credits (vs occasionally "swapping" with someone).
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
A quick mildly unfair quick fix could be that the owners must occupy the structure at least 75% of the time or something like that. Basically only allocating 25% max of the local market to rentals. This would also avoid the corporate vs private problem. Blanket rule.........if it's housing it's housing and you have to be housed in it at least X% of the time. If you aren't, clearly it isn't housing. And cities zone for housing/residential and other areas.

Yeah, a well-designed rule along those lines might actually improve affordability, by enabling people to generate some rental income. Living in a college town, I can see the attraction to some academics who could make some money renting out during the summer.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [ike] [ In reply to ]
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In my neighborhood, the loophole is that if you have two attached townhouses and you live in one and own the other one, you can use it as an Airbnb.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I have a basement that could be rented out as a LTR. But I won't do that because of our fucked up renter's laws. So it is STR. You know why? Because everybody is allowed to raise prices and taxes but landlords are not. All landlords can do is raise the rent once a year by allowable amount of 2-3%. So if prices everywhere are going up but mine can't then I'll go STR. Sorry local residents. Whenever the government moves in to "help" the locals they fuck up things. OK, most of the time. But I see your point. In the old city of Dubrovnik hardly anybody lives long term. Property values are sky high, so are the taxes so what options locals have whose income does not mach the price and tax increase.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds like the old system, though not perfect and far from being the most practical for some, was manageable.

The new system evidently works great for the wealthy / fortunate, but appears to be causing significant affordability issues globally.

I'm for closing the divide and align with the post about letting your own personal residence. I'm not sure I'd set limits on time occupied, provided it can be confirmed as your primary place of residence and you have no other STRs.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
A quick mildly unfair quick fix could be that the owners must occupy the structure at least 75% of the time or something like that. Basically only allocating 25% max of the local market to rentals. This would also avoid the corporate vs private problem. Blanket rule.........if it's housing it's housing and you have to be housed in it at least X% of the time. If you aren't, clearly it isn't housing. And cities zone for housing/residential and other areas.

In theory a good idea. In practice you need a lot of inspectors to make sure it is being enforced. We have too much gov't already.

If is like uber. It started out all sunshine and roses and now we find out people are barely making a living as Uber drivers and want to unionize and have minimum wages etc.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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We stay in 6-8 AirBnB’s every year and complain every time how no one can afford to buy into these communities. We are part of the problem.

Housing shouldn’t be an investment opportunity for PE and hedge funds. They should not be allowed to buy homes for the purpose of renting them to anyone other than their own employees.

My circle has a lot of people from the RE world - developers through loan officers. They have been gobbling up property before it goes on the market for nearly 15 years now. They’ve made so much money and have multiple properties they’ve collected over the years. Several are now selling. Things are going to get interesting over the next 2-3 years. On a side note since we have to interject politics into everything. These are tried and true Pubs. They think Trump is a terrible person but will be voting for him because he less likely to try to take their hard earned money. At some point, I hope we all learn there is more to life than the accumulation of more wealth than a family will ever need.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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TimeIsUp wrote:

Housing shouldn’t be an investment opportunity for PE and hedge funds. They should not be allowed to buy homes for the purpose of renting them to anyone other than their own employees.

.

Are you familiar with Stuyvesant Village in NYC? Who built it?

How is the housing stock going to be built? Not everyone can afford to build a new house and pay rent while waiting for it.

We use STR in FL.... if they didn't exist we probably wouldn't go where we do because spending that much time in a hotel room of suitable size would be cost prohibitve (and they would have to build said resort style hotel complexes)
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe it's paranoia, or just seeing a bunch of bad movies, but I have a suspicion that owner's have stashed hidden cameras in them. That makes me uneasy.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I've been using VRBO since 2003 or 4. The first time out was finding a 5 bedroom house with a pool a few miles from the USAT Training Center and Disney World for something like $500 for the week. I was hooked immediately. It is the first place I look whether it is just the two of us or a large group. I almost never stay in a hotel at my destination.

I'm curious what the actual percentage of homes are STR's. I've looked a little but not finding numbers. Lots talking about vacancy rates and profitability. What I want to know is whether STR are an actual problem or are they just taking the blame. Some buildings have always been almost all STR, anyone who has done IMFL probably at least looked at staying at The Summit. Now you can see them all in one place. I'm also not sure what percentage would represent a problem. Does taking 2% out of housing make things unaffordable? Someone more educated than me on the subject would have to fill in that number.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
Maybe it's paranoia, or just seeing a bunch of bad movies, but I have a suspicion that owner's have stashed hidden cameras in them. That makes me uneasy.

I always walk around the house naked when I first get there. I know that they will turn off all cameras because nobody wants to see me naked.

It has created a couple of odd reactions when I'm just renting a room in a house where other people live versus having the whole house to myself - but they get over it... after some therapy.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if it's the vacancy rate contribution that is causing upwards pressure on prices, but more so the potential of the property to generate income.

If you're looking at buying an investment property that will bring in 3000/mth in rent as a long term rental, that has an effect on the price of that property. You're not going to pay more for that property than it has the potential to bring in.

With short term rentals, now that property has the potential to bring in 5000/mth, and you don't have to deal with the rules that dictate long term rentals and tenancy protection. All of a sudden investors are willing to pay a lot more for that unit.

In BC, the government kept repeating that we had something like 16,500 dedicated Airbnb units that should be returned to the long term rental pool. That's nothing, especially considering with our immigration debacle we are importing something like 10x that amount of people every year. Also, that number includes units in resort towns like Whistler that will be exempt from the ban, so the real number of units going back to the market will be miniscule and have no effect on vacancy rates.

Whether the change in land use will have an effect remains to be seen.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Rick_pcfl wrote:
40-Tude wrote:
Maybe it's paranoia, or just seeing a bunch of bad movies, but I have a suspicion that owner's have stashed hidden cameras in them. That makes me uneasy.


I always walk around the house naked when I first get there. I know that they will turn off all cameras because nobody wants to see me naked.

It has created a couple of odd reactions when I'm just renting a room in a house where other people live versus having the whole house to myself - but they get over it... after some therapy.

Now that's funny!
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:

Housing shouldn’t be an investment opportunity for PE and hedge funds. They should not be allowed to buy homes for the purpose of renting them to anyone other than their own employees.

.

Are you familiar with Stuyvesant Village in NYC? Who built it?

How is the housing stock going to be built? Not everyone can afford to build a new house and pay rent while waiting for it.

We use STR in FL.... if they didn't exist we probably wouldn't go where we do because spending that much time in a hotel room of suitable size would be cost prohibitve (and they would have to build said resort style hotel complexes)

The same way it was done before the leaches latched onto the SFH market.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [Rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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Rick_pcfl wrote:
40-Tude wrote:
Maybe it's paranoia, or just seeing a bunch of bad movies, but I have a suspicion that owner's have stashed hidden cameras in them. That makes me uneasy.


I always walk around the house naked when I first get there. I know that they will turn off all cameras because nobody wants to see me naked.

It has created a couple of odd reactions when I'm just renting a room in a house where other people live versus having the whole house to myself - but they get over it... after some therapy.

Yeah, that footage is going to be a lot more disturbing and embarrassing for them than it ever will be for me.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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TimeIsUp wrote:
windywave wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:

Housing shouldn’t be an investment opportunity for PE and hedge funds. They should not be allowed to buy homes for the purpose of renting them to anyone other than their own employees.

.

Are you familiar with Stuyvesant Village in NYC? Who built it?

How is the housing stock going to be built? Not everyone can afford to build a new house and pay rent while waiting for it.

We use STR in FL.... if they didn't exist we probably wouldn't go where we do because spending that much time in a hotel room of suitable size would be cost prohibitve (and they would have to build said resort style hotel complexes)

The same way it was done before the leaches latched onto the SFH market.

Which was investments from PE, hedge funds, insurance companies et al. The issue is not who owns the unit. The issue is the mismatch in cashflows and liabilities of LTR versus STR. If investors could make the same money from LTR as STR they would move stock to the LTR market and off the STR market.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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I mostly welcome airbnb. I think seeing the impact the NYC and other locations have on restricting will be interesting. I have rented furnished rentals since 2005. Prior to Airbnb, even with vrbo in existence - rentals where I looked, in northern Michigan, Rome, Costa Rica - were almost all exclusively 7 day rentals. Now, some of that may been due to local regulations. For me, if I am traveling for more than 1 night, I will usually look for an STR, but if location and price are not close to a hotel, I'll go with hotel - either for loyalty, or convenience, or expectation of brand consistency / customer experience. I recently stayed at a marriott residence inn, in vegas. It was nice to be off the strip, and have more space. I got it to be able to walk to the sphere.

My current local town currently has no restrictions on STRs, and there is a shortage of long term rental housing because of it - however, wages are low, I think 30% is below the federal poverty level.
Even before Airbnb, many of the homes were 2nd homes. Folks from more urban areas, and thus often higher earning, can pay cash, thus pricing out some of the lower earning folks locally. Aging housing stock - much if it around 100 years old. The town started marketing towards silent sports folks, as it had been for power sports for years. I have met many folks like myself, moved here for both cost of housing and proximity to outdoor recreation. Trails run through town - for both power and silent sports.
The town has started debates around restricting STRs, either by adding cost for non-local hosts / owners, or by # of rentals. I don't expect it to move fast. One of the local hotel owners complains about STRs, IMO, the hotel stock is lower quality / value, compared to renting an Airbnb. more motels.

I've had terrible experiences with rentals, and hotels. One rental in Northern WI, ice storm, frozen pipes, and many tourists in town for an XC ski race. No water for 1 day. Owner/host was 7 hour drive away. Got 1/2 the cost back. One motel - overbooked for another event. I have also been walked from mariott recently - escalated and got $$ and points.

I am considering buying more and doing the STR host full time. Another option, I have an offer to move out west, and thus have to consider what to do with my current home. Either find a manager locally, or sell it. The town I am considering moving to out west, has restrictions on number or STRs only for the owners who are not local. If I were to build an ADU - accessory dwelling unit, no license needed. And the town is very short on inventory for both rental and owning property, especially when local wages are compared to prices.
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Re: What are your thoughts on AirBNB? [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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The issue in BC is not so much the laws in favor of the tenant, but the under staffing of the tenancy branch. Basically if you have a conflict you are looking at 9-12 months back log before your case is heard, with close to zero probability of re-coup if you are right, heavy penalties if you are wrong.

We are currently looking at renting a suite in our primary, one good option for you maybe non profit Hospital society etc. Effectively here they rent your place on a yearly basis and use it for doctors/nurses/specialists/facilities employees etc short term. They clean/manage tenants, often you are paid a year up front.

Maurice
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