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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
Psychiatrists are very committed to medicines.

Therapists very committed to talking.

When I was a kid, I probably would've gone to a psychiatrist would would've medicated the issues "away" (but not really away, if you know what I mean)

Now, I have a therapist

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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Barks&Purrs wrote:
Is it true that mental health therapies generally have low effectiveness? That’s counter to what I’ve heard. I would love to have accurate information, so if you can provide links, I would appreciate it.

I was thinking medications over and above things like ordinary doctor visits and changing lifestyle somewhat etc. In a sense just seeing a doctor or therapist is a therapy. If one looks at naturalistic studies (where no therapy is given) depression gets better at a rate of about 50 percent. Meds have a 10-20 percentage over that. Having said that each time you try a different med you have additional chances of getting better. I am not saying don't try conventional therapy just that we often think the pills are doing more than they are.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [Barks&Purrs] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK361016/

Just look at the cartoons. For depression 20 out of a 100 people get better with an antidepressant above that of placebo.

Full disclosure I am on an antidepressant. Without it I tend to relapse. Sigh

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [spockman] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4853640/

An article about the difficulties in deciding what to do in conditions (in this case depression) that have a high placebo response rate.

Things like psychedelics have such a dramatic effect one would think that perhaps the expectation created is high that they will work. So the expectations created alone may have a powerful effect.

Sometimes I see a patient for depression and they report feeling "all better" after a few days of anti-depressant. In those cases it shouldn't be the drug that fixed things.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [spockman] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen the benefits of antidepressants for others. As a bystander, I appreciate them.
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [noodle_soup] [ In reply to ]
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I recently completed a 7 week ketamine group therapy regiment targeting first responders. I don’t want to talk about it in an open forum but will one on one. Feel free to PM me if you would like to chat.

*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [spockman] [ In reply to ]
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spockman wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4853640/

An article about the difficulties in deciding what to do in conditions (in this case depression) that have a high placebo response rate.

Things like psychedelics have such a dramatic effect one would think that perhaps the expectation created is high that they will work. So the expectations created alone may have a powerful effect.

Sometimes I see a patient for depression and they report feeling "all better" after a few days of anti-depressant. In those cases it shouldn't be the drug that fixed things.

My experience with psychedelics was that at least the first few times you take them they have a pretty profound effect on one's perspective. I could see how that opportunity could be used to possibly have an effect on someone with PTSD, anxiety (especially over end of life fears), depression, maybe addiction. I think most people are probably never quite the same after taking them but their effect does fade over time and while you may never forget the perspectives they can provide you do slowly drift back into every day humdrum existence.

I don't remember the experience of developing some sort of resolve to make changes in my life when I first took them that has occurred the last couple of times I've taken them, which has only been maybe once a decade for the last 20 or 25 years.
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
I just thought of something else, Sam Harris has discussed this topic a few times on his podcast with leading researchers in the area, might be worth checking those out. I'm pretty sure there have been some clinical trials.


My colleague's husband is also a physician and works in this field. You may have seen him in Michael Pollen's Netflix series, How to Change Your Mind. I'm working with her today and can pass along any useful new information via PM regarding his practice if you're interested.

A Patient-Centered Approach to Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy - Dr. Manish Agrawal, Co-Founder and CEO of Sunstone Therapies (osmosis.org)

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“With psychedelics right now, there's a lot of hype around the compound, which is somewhat important, but Sunstone Therapies is really founded on the belief that the delivery is more important than the drug,” says Dr. Manish Agrawal, the company’s co-founder and CEO. As interest in the use of psychedelics for mental health treatment grows and various compounds continue to move down the path of FDA approval, Agrawal wants to be sure the medical system is prepared to provide the safest and most effective experience for patients. In fact, his company is conducting clinical trials to help define the standards for optimal patient care. Serious thought is given to everything from lighting to how patients are greeted, and of course there is great emphasis placed on training therapists properly and supporting them as they do what can be emotionally taxing work. “When people come through Sunstone, we want them to feel loved and held -- because they're dealing with very difficult issues -- but also the rigor and the discipline of a very thorough process that is very safe.” Listen to this super thoughtful conversation with host Shiv Gaglani as Agrawal discusses a new model of mental health care, psychedelic-assisted group therapy, and the transformative results he’s seen in patients. “In the right context with the right amount of support and understanding, psychedelics can help people resolve difficult emotions.” Mentioned in this episode: https://www.sunstonetherapies.com/

If you're not familiar with the Netflix series I highly recommend it. I don't recall which episode he's featured in but the whole short series is excellent.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: May 15, 24 11:27
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
spockman wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4853640/

An article about the difficulties in deciding what to do in conditions (in this case depression) that have a high placebo response rate.

Things like psychedelics have such a dramatic effect one would think that perhaps the expectation created is high that they will work. So the expectations created alone may have a powerful effect.

Sometimes I see a patient for depression and they report feeling "all better" after a few days of anti-depressant. In those cases it shouldn't be the drug that fixed things.

My experience with psychedelics was that at least the first few times you take them they have a pretty profound effect on one's perspective. I could see how that opportunity could be used to possibly have an effect on someone with PTSD, anxiety (especially over end of life fears), depression, maybe addiction. I think most people are probably never quite the same after taking them but their effect does fade over time and while you may never forget the perspectives they can provide you do slowly drift back into every day humdrum existence.

I don't remember the experience of developing some sort of resolve to make changes in my life when I first took them that has occurred the last couple of times I've taken them, which has only been maybe once a decade for the last 20 or 25 years.


Thisisit - great post.

Exactly what I was trying to say but with better focus!

One might add...

Psychedelics are kind of a "one-trick pony." The freshness of the first insights are not necessarily reproduced by further use.

And the weight of modern reality, and all it's attendants difficulties- continue unabated.
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
spockman wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4853640/

An article about the difficulties in deciding what to do in conditions (in this case depression) that have a high placebo response rate.

Things like psychedelics have such a dramatic effect one would think that perhaps the expectation created is high that they will work. So the expectations created alone may have a powerful effect.

Sometimes I see a patient for depression and they report feeling "all better" after a few days of anti-depressant. In those cases it shouldn't be the drug that fixed things.


My experience with psychedelics was that at least the first few times you take them they have a pretty profound effect on one's perspective. I could see how that opportunity could be used to possibly have an effect on someone with PTSD, anxiety (especially over end of life fears), depression, maybe addiction. I think most people are probably never quite the same after taking them but their effect does fade over time and while you may never forget the perspectives they can provide you do slowly drift back into every day humdrum existence.

I don't remember the experience of developing some sort of resolve to make changes in my life when I first took them that has occurred the last couple of times I've taken them, which has only been maybe once a decade for the last 20 or 25 years.



Thisisit - great post.

Exactly what I was trying to say but with better focus!

One might add...

Psychedelics are kind of a "one-trick pony." The freshness of the first insights are not necessarily reproduced by further use.

And the weight of modern reality, and all it's attendants difficulties- continue unabated.

My experience was at some point they become boring and you're just waiting for the trip to be over. I don't think I would ever do LSD again, it lasts too long.

Psychedelics seems to be the one class of recreational drugs that you want to do less the more you've done them (not sure what you'd call that, anti-addiction properties).
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Re: Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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"Psychedelics seems to be the one class of recreational drugs that you want to do less the more you've done them (not sure what you'd call that, anti-addiction properties)."

I tend to think the possibility of a "bad trip" is significant.

If something delivers a realistic measure of both joy and misery- addiction is not a highly probable outcome.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: May 15, 24 12:44
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